Kovalev Bashers!!!

Andy · Veteran Member

Kovalev Bashers!!!

barry33 · Guru

The fact is that he is the highest paid player on this team at 4.5 million per year. Kovy gets paid to score and put points on the board. Koivu has had his share of bashing because he is the second highest paid player. His defenders state that, although he is not a big scorer, he brings alot more to the team with his work ethic and leadership abilities. In Kovalev's case he is pretty much a one-dimensional type player. He is a goal scorer. So if he is not putting the puck in the net he is not doing what he is paid 4.5 mill a season to do. Simple as that. So you are saying that as long as he shows up now and then and contributes with a key goal, then his status as the highest paid player on the team is justified?

Let me use an analogy. You are in sales. You are a good salesman when you want to be. Sometimes you go weeks without a sale, just kinda getting by on the job, doing what it takes to keep the boss off your back, going through the motions. You are by far the highest paid salesman in your company. Now and then you chip in with a "big sale'. Even though, everyone in the company knows you can do much better, you are happy to just get by and, every now and then, show a bit of the sales talent that makes you so highly paid. Would your co-workers be happy? Would your boss be happy?

JohnM · Guru

Bottom line is he was brought to this team to get points at crucial times. He does that sometimes and doesn't others, not because he can't but because he is disinterested. We all know he has the talent, would just like to see some of the heart.

Andy · Veteran Member

ok so Koavlev is the highest paid player, and he has two game winning goals in two regulation wins. What else do you want for production.

I know everyone else expects more bu the does have two game winning goals and almost a point in every game, 2 goals and 2 assists in 6 games. Not that bad.

I do agree it could be better, but he still has 2 Game winning goals, he is there when it has counted.

No need to talk down at me Barry. I dont need a corporate analogy. Speaking of sales , sales are based on individuals not based on a group of sales rep getting the big deal !!!!! I don't a business that works like that, that is why many people think sales men are sleazy.

Also there are sales comissions. So in the end your analogy sucks. I didn't post to have someone to try to talk to me like im an idiot.

-- Edited by Andy at 19:50, 2006-10-18

barry33 · Guru

Andy wrote:

ok so Koavlev is the highest paid player, and he has two game winning goals in two regulation wins. What else do you want for production.

I know everyone else expects more bu the does have two game winning goals and almost a point in every game, 2 goals and 2 assists in 6 games. Not that bad.

I do agree it could be better, but he still has 2 Game winning goals, he is there when it has counted.

No need to talk down at me Barry. I dont need a corporate analogy. Speaking of sales , sales are based on individuals not based on a group of sales rep getting the big deal !!!!! I don't a business that works like that, that is why many people think sales men are sleazy.

Also there are sales comissions. So in the end your analogy sucks. I didn't post to have someone to try to talk to me like im an idiot.

-- Edited by Andy at 19:50, 2006-10-18

Andy I apologize if I offended you. It was not my intention at all. And certainly did not mean to make it sound like I talked down to you. You should post more as your make some great points. I only used that analogy to try and explain in non-hockey terms why people get upset at Kovalev. And yes, I am a sleazy salesman lol.

plouf · Guru

Just to add to the mix.....some non-bashing from someone who is very frustrated with Kovy lately:

The biggest defense of Kovalev:
-in two years he has shown up for the playoffs big time, both times. And his goals are often timely.

The second biggest defense:
-just having him on the ice creates defensive havoc. Sometimes stats aren't everything. If he can take pressure off the other lines, great. So far the 1st and 3rd lines are benefiting from the attention Kovy gets.

The third biggest defense:
-that (dirty) hit on Tucker will live on as a legendary play...

MC Girl · Guru

plouf wrote:

Just to add to the mix.....some non-bashing from someone who is very frustrated with Kovy lately:

The biggest defense of Kovalev:
-in two years he has shown up for the playoffs big time, both times. And his goals are often timely.

The second biggest defense:
-just having him on the ice creates defensive havoc. Sometimes stats aren't everything. If he can take pressure off the other lines, great. So far the 1st and 3rd lines are benefiting from the attention Kovy gets.

The third biggest defense:
-that (dirty) hit on Tucker will live on as a legendary play...

barry33 · Guru

plouf wrote:

Just to add to the mix.....some non-bashing from someone who is very frustrated with Kovy lately:

The biggest defense of Kovalev:
-in two years he has shown up for the playoffs big time, both times. And his goals are often timely.

The second biggest defense:
-just having him on the ice creates defensive havoc. Sometimes stats aren't everything. If he can take pressure off the other lines, great. So far the 1st and 3rd lines are benefiting from the attention Kovy gets.

The third biggest defense:
-that (dirty) hit on Tucker will live on as a legendary play...

Plouf- you just proved my point in regards to the hit on Downey. The hit Kovy threw on Tucker was "legendary". The clean hit thrown on Downey was dirty and a cheap shot. The defense rests

In my opinion., the hit that Latendresse threw on Dimaio of Tampa in the preseason was much dirtier and cheap because it was a head shot.. Dimaio may never play again.

-- Edited by barry33 at 07:54, 2006-10-19

wright · Veteran Member

Andy wrote:

To all Kovalev bashers. The habs currently have two wins in regulation and one in a shoot out. Correct me if I am wrong but Kovalev has both game winning goals. He caused the 2-1 lead in Philly and the 5-4 win in Calagary. So Mr not showing up every night could be also be know so far as Mr. Clutch.

I don't post alot but really can't stand the Kovalev bashing that goes in here.

After last nights game Carbo was quoted as saying "the second line has to give us more. They all are minus players and its time they do something". The second line looked good in spurts last night, more so when Sammy was taken off the line and Perez was put in his place. Last night was in some respects a typical Kovalev game, his great puck control forced the Hawks to take thefirst penalty of the game, and later he created a great scoring opportunity for Plekanec. Nonetheless, for the whole game he was a minus one, and at times looked disinterested. As has been stated many times, he is a massive talent, but the work ethic and desire are not there on a consistent basis, this is what is frustrating, because the capabilities are there for so much more.

As for the Mr.Clutch label, well it would be nice for Kovalev to score in the shoot out portion of a game, when the extra point is on the line.

barry33 · Guru

wright wrote:

Andy wrote:

To all Kovalev bashers. The habs currently have two wins in regulation and one in a shoot out. Correct me if I am wrong but Kovalev has both game winning goals. He caused the 2-1 lead in Philly and the 5-4 win in Calagary. So Mr not showing up every night could be also be know so far as Mr. Clutch.

I don't post alot but really can't stand the Kovalev bashing that goes in here.

After last nights game Carbo was quoted as saying "the second line has to give us more. They all are minus players and its time they do something". The second line looked good in spurts last night, more so when Sammy was taken off the line and Perez was put in his place. Last night was in some respects a typical Kovalev game, his great puck control forced the Hawks to take thefirst penalty of the game, and later he created a great scoring opportunity for Plekanec. Nonetheless, for the whole game he was a minus one, and at times looked disinterested. As has been stated many times, he is a massive talent, but the work ethic and desire are not there on a consistent basis, this is what is frustrating, because the capabilities are there for so much more.

As for the Mr.Clutch label, well it would be nice for Kovalev to score in the shoot out portion of a game, when the extra point is on the line.

That whole line is a collective minus 9. Time for a change and I am not pointing fingers at any one player.

plouf · Guru

barry33 wrote:

plouf wrote:

Just to add to the mix.....some non-bashing from someone who is very frustrated with Kovy lately:

The biggest defense of Kovalev:
-in two years he has shown up for the playoffs big time, both times. And his goals are often timely.

The second biggest defense:
-just having him on the ice creates defensive havoc. Sometimes stats aren't everything. If he can take pressure off the other lines, great. So far the 1st and 3rd lines are benefiting from the attention Kovy gets.

The third biggest defense:
-that (dirty) hit on Tucker will live on as a legendary play...

Plouf- you just proved my point in regards to the hit on Downey. The hit Kovy threw on Tucker was "legendary". The clean hit thrown on Downey was dirty and a cheap shot. The defense rests In my opinion., the hit that Latendresse threw on Dimaio of Tampa in the preseason was much dirtier and cheap because it was a head shot.. Dimaio may never play again.

-- Edited by barry33 at 07:54, 2006-10-19

Well I haven't argued with this view of the play since late in the game against Calgary. After seeing replays I more or less agreed with AB's view. I still think Regehr was out there looking to smash someone. Nothing dirty about that, but it's still head hunting. I never used the words "dirty" or "cheap shot" so I think you are confusing me with someone else.

skov1044 · Member

wright wrote:

Andy wrote:

To all Kovalev bashers. The habs currently have two wins in regulation and one in a shoot out. Correct me if I am wrong but Kovalev has both game winning goals. He caused the 2-1 lead in Philly and the 5-4 win in Calagary. So Mr not showing up every night could be also be know so far as Mr. Clutch.

I don't post alot but really can't stand the Kovalev bashing that goes in here.

After last nights game Carbo was quoted as saying "the second line has to give us more. They all are minus players and its time they do something". The second line looked good in spurts last night, more so when Sammy was taken off the line and Perez was put in his place. Last night was in some respects a typical Kovalev game, his great puck control forced the Hawks to take thefirst penalty of the game, and later he created a great scoring opportunity for Plekanec. Nonetheless, for the whole game he was a minus one, and at times looked disinterested. As has been stated many times, he is a massive talent, but the work ethic and desire are not there on a consistent basis, this is what is frustrating, because the capabilities are there for so much more.

As for the Mr.Clutch label, well it would be nice for Kovalev to score in the shoot out portion of a game, when the extra point is on the line.

i thought this was a great move by carbo ,phogin was dying on that 3rd line

i hasnt noticed him at all this season until he was moved to the 2nd line last nite

did u notice the chances that line got once phogin got there

Andy · Veteran Member

apology accepted.

And p.s. it was not a good day too post that yesterday. I really think Kovalev needs a more productive centre. He played amazing when he was with Koivu and Zednick. I still think if they could get Petr Nedved or even Yanic Perrault ( I know he is a defensive lapse, but im sure if the habs had one defensive liability it would not kill them, Riberio was a defensive lapse) Perrault or Nedved could get the puck off to Kovalev or finsih a kovalev pass better then Plekance. No offence to Plekanc but I think he got thrown into high expectations to quick and is slowing down the wingers production.

barry33 · Guru

Andy wrote:

apology accepted.

And p.s. it was not a good day too post that yesterday. I really think Kovalev needs a more productive centre. He played amazing when he was with Koivu and Zednick. I still think if they could get Petr Nedved or even Yanic Perrault ( I know he is a defensive lapse, but im sure if the habs had one defensive liability it would not kill them, Riberio was a defensive lapse) Perrault or Nedved could get the puck off to Kovalev or finsih a kovalev pass better then Plekance. No offence to Plekanc but I think he got thrown into high expectations to quick and is slowing down the wingers production.

Andy- I agree. I have said all along that Pleks is NOT ready to be a second line center in this league and he has done nothing to prove me wrong yet. He is just not a good fit on that line.

AB Habman · Guru

Guys...how can you blame Plecs? He's the only one skating and going to the net. I note when he's carrying the puck, Kovy and Sammy are creating way too much seperation from him. Can't expect him to pass through three players all the time.

When Kovy or Sammy do their keep-away thing with the puck, Plecs goes straight for the net to draw a defensemen and create a screen. He knows that he won't get the puck passed to him anyways.

JohnM · Guru

I don't think they are blaming Pleks, just saying he isn't meant between those two.

barry33 · Guru

JohnM wrote:

I don't think they are blaming Pleks, just saying he isn't meant between those two.

Exactly Johnny. FOr 2 reasons. He is not offensively gifted enough and number 2, he is just not ready. That is not a knock against his efforts to date. And, as I have stated many times, the 2 Russians with walking insomnia have to share a bit of the blame too. Ideally, Koivu would be a perfect fit there. He has the wheels and the creativity and likes to pass the puck (which is good because they like to HAVE the puck). But no way will carbo break up the one solid line we have.

AB Habman · Guru

My point is that Kovy and Sammy are very hard to play with for any centermen. They don't support the puck carrier well thus too much seperation. They're hard to hit with a pass. Ribs was having some success with Kovy late last season because he's a good passer.

Muller93 · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

Guys...how can you blame Plecs? He's the only one skating and going to the net. I note when he's carrying the puck, Kovy and Sammy are creating way too much seperation from him. Can't expect him to pass through three players all the time.

When Kovy or Sammy do their keep-away thing with the puck, Plecs goes straight for the net to draw a defensemen and create a screen. He knows that he won't get the puck passed to him anyways.

Bingo! Ain't Pleks fault. Look no further than the Russians. Two of them love to play keep away and one of them( Markov) looks like he forgot his heart at his summer resort.

At the start of the year I wondered if the 'gutless' stereotype given to Russians was correct...hmmmm. I am starting to hear rumours that markov wants to go home...poor boy.

NEWFIEHABSFAN · Senior Member

time to put my two cents worth in! two games in doesn't make kovy " MR. CLUTCH", now if he produces over 82 games and he does the same job, then he becomes mr. clutch. but as the saying goes: there's no I in team and the bottom line is that if kovy and the rest of the second line produces then the winner will be the habs and thats the bottom line cause STONE COLD NEWFIEHABSFAN SAYS SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

barry33 · Guru

NEWFIEHABSFAN wrote:

time to put my two cents worth in! two games in doesn't make kovy " MR. CLUTCH", now if he produces over 82 games and he does the same job, then he becomes mr. clutch. but as the saying goes: there's no I in team and the bottom line is that if kovy and the rest of the second line produces then the winner will be the habs and thats the bottom line cause STONE COLD NEWFIEHABSFAN SAYS SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Trevor- I am gonna be on the rock from Oct 31st to Nov 2nd..St Johns. Ar eyou from there?

NEWFIEHABSFAN · Senior Member

yea! i live just outside in god's country called the goulds! what brings you to the rock?

Andy · Veteran Member

But you praised him in the playoffs!!! That is when you get labeled clutch. I think he was the habs best player in their last three playoff series. Most goals I think, I am not looking into the stats but im sure somebody will prove me wrong if I am not correct.

Muller93 · Guru

Andy wrote:

But you praised him in the playoffs!!! That is when you get labeled clutch. I think he was the habs best player in their last three playoff series. Most goals I think, I am not looking into the stats but im sure somebody will prove me wrong if I am not correct.

Not to drum it up again, but I have a agree with barry's salesman analogy. I do not expect peak performance every night...but I do expect him to be one of the best players 60-65 out of the 82 games with his level of skill.

Right now iIpropose the guy is the best player in 10 of the 82 games and an average joe in at least 50. That is unacceptable for a guy with his immense talent...you know why????????

Because that sets a bad tone for the rest of the teams work ethic. Your 'best" players absolutly need to be your leaders. Showing up 50% of the time is not leading.

I have never liked talanted guys who give 50% most nights and bail themselves out with an out of the blue "clutch" performance( Yashin anyone????5). Why not give 100% every night? I know if I was earning 4.5 mil per year...I would be given' er EVERY NIGHT!!!

-- Edited by Muller93 at 21:35, 2006-10-19

-- Edited by Muller93 at 21:37, 2006-10-19

Andy · Veteran Member

RK Player P Tm GP G A P +/- PIM OT PP SH GW S S% TOI/G Sft/G FO% 1 ALEX KOVALEV R MTL 69 23 42 65 -1 76 1 9 0 5 206 11.2 19:28 21.3 48.9 2 SAKU KOIVU C MTL 72 17 45 62 1 70 3 5 0 4 138 12.3 18:31 23.1 53.8 3 MICHAEL RYDER R MTL 81 30 25 55 -5 40 2 18 0 6 243 12.3 16:10 19.2 52.9 4 MIKE RIBEIRO C MTL 79 16 35 51 -6 36 1 8 0 2 130 12.3 16:34 18.5 44.7

Based on last years stats. Habs have played 6 games and Kovalev has 4 points this year. So Kovalev finished with 7 less goals vs Ryder and Ryder played 12 more. Kovalev amlost averaged a point a game. Koivu came close but not the rest. So for the early critics, a season is 82 games not 6. I rest my case as the stats are there to back me up. Which sales rep would you rather have 1, 2,3, or4?????? I choose 1 since he is the most productive.

It could be worse , at least the Habs are not producing like Ottawa. Or better yet, How about trading Kovalev for Marian Hossa??? Hossa will load up on regular season points and not show up in the playoffs. I guess that would be the opposite of Kovalev and would make everyone happy !!!!!

-- Edited by Andy at 22:15, 2006-10-19

Fatherhab · Senior Member

Stats anyone: Past 2 Seasons in NHL for right wingers

Kovalev- 37 goals 4.5 million, Zubrus- 35 goals 1.8 million, Zednik- 42 goals 1.9 million

Vyborny- 44 goals 2.2 million, Tucker- 49 goals 1.5 million, Sykora- 23 goals 2.9 million

St.Louis- 69 goals 6 million, Selanne- 56 goals 3.7 million, Ryder- 55 goals 2.2 million

Parrish- 53 goals 2.6 million, Neil- 24 goals 1.1 million, Murray- 56 goals 4.1 million

Knubble- 55 goals 1.5 million, Ignila- 76 goals 7 million, Hossa- 75 goals 6 million,

Heduk-59 goals 3.9 million, Guerin- 47 goals 2 million, Gaborik-56 goals 5 million,

Bertuzzi- 42 goals 5.2 million, Alfredsson- 75 goals 4.6 million,

The list goes on, point is Kovalev underperforms in comparison to most wingers in the league, time he puts out!!! Unfortunately we are stuck with him. Gainey won't find another GM who would be willing to waste their money.

Andy · Veteran Member

Can you turn the playoff stats also???? I am curious to see Zubrus numbers???? Because in your words we should take Zubrus over Kovalev.

All those players have great supporting cast. Tucker would not get those numbers without Sundin on the powerplay. Alfredson had Hossa and now Speeza and Heatly to dish him the puck. You just proved my point even stronger that the problem is the centre man. As all those guys have a great supporting cast or centre man. At the moment Kovalev's supporting cast is pleckanc, I highly doubt Tucker puts those numbers up with Pleckanc, or even Vybrony. Look at the whole picture, A team is not one player but a line.

Next your basing it over two years. Everyone underperformed when Kovalev was on the Rangers. I was comparing Kovalev's stats to his own team. So in the end let's get rid of the whole team becuase Koivu's 4 million does not come close to those numbers.

-- Edited by Andy at 13:04, 2006-10-20

Fatherhab · Senior Member

Andy wrote:

To all Kovalev bashers. The habs currently have two wins in regulation and one in a shoot out. Correct me if I am wrong but Kovalev has both game winning goals. He caused the 2-1 lead in Philly and the 5-4 win in Calagary. So Mr not showing up every night could be also be know so far as Mr. Clutch.

I don't post alot but really can't stand the Kovalev bashing that goes in here.

Well Mr. Clutch in regular season Game Winning Goals were:

2005/06 ---5 out of 23, 2003/2004----1 out of 14, 2002/03----3 out of 32, 2001/02 --3 out of 32

Zednick had more game winners(18) over that period. --Way less money

The Habs didn't sign this guy to show-up only during the playoffs.

Please don't compare Ryder to Kovalev- there is no comparison, at this stage he is head over heels ahead of Kovalev at way less money. Koivu brings so much more to the table as well.

Andy · Veteran Member

I still do not see the playoff stats. Ryders playoff stats because come playoff time you will be ripping him for not showing like the past two years.

Habtastic · Guru

Andy, you need to face the facts that Kovy is just not putting up the numbers he should. You talk about all the other players having great centers to work with, but more than half the list that Fatherhab posted did not have great centers, they actually had average centers at best. The game-winners during the season are also indicative of his lack of 'clutch' scoring, especially when you take into account all the one-goal games we lost where he could have tied it up.
Now you are switching your argument to play-offs, but in the play-offs he has scored only 84 pts in 100 games, but he has had 1pt per game with Montreal, which is good, but not great. Also, last year when we needed him the most because of the injury to Koivu, he disappeared.
What cements it for me though, is that the coaches have called him out and he has not responded. And this has happened more than once. The fact that they called him out is bad enough, but the fact that he hasn't responded shows a lack of pride and that is unacceptable when you put on the CH.

Habtastic