Maybe... but after 3 games (and a bunch more in the pre season) why are the majority of the garbage calls going against us? Carbonneau needs to adress the situation. Being short handed gives the other teams chances, it takes time away from us to score, and it breaks the rythm of the guys who don't kill penalties (ahem... second line)

Diehardhabsfan wrote:

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most of those penalties were garbage calls

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Personally it is getting a bit old when we all blame the refs. Are all the refs in the legaue out to get the habs? Do they sit in the dressing room before every game conspiring as to who can put the most habs in the box, loser buys the beer after the game? Take the Buffalo game for instance. We had a godzillion power plays in the 3rd period. Then the resf decide to call a couple against Montreal and all of a sudden we are all up in arms regarding the officiating. In my opinion, the best way to counteract penalties is to have a lethal PP so that when we do get opportunities we bury them.

And-o is concerned with the following...

...the Habs need to learn how to finish better...pad a lead...hold the lead...finish the game safely (versus the usual panic mode)!

...too many lazy penalties!  The rules are the rules...quit whining and follow them!  75% of all penalties seem to occur when guys stop moving their feet at the end of a shift!

...too much passing, not nearly enough shooting!

...second line chemistry!  (Kovy's goal resulted from a blind luck bounce and a bullet shot...but this line needs to consistently threaten offensively...not just when the mood is right)

...Radek Bonk still takes the odd shift off!!!  Carbo needs to rip him BIGTIME!

...and, And-o's biggest concern AS USUAL, Koivu gets 'gassed' with his pedal-to-the-medal...and And-o's heart sits in his throat watching him take hit-after-hit while digging for the puck!  No way should Saku be tasked with 'offing' penalties...playing PP...leading the top line...taking all key faceoffs...etc!  Folks...at this pace...it is only a matter of time before something on Saku gives (and that ain't bashing).  Just don't be surprised...and don't blame And-o!!!

Big huge concern Ray. Big huge one.

Without having the stats in front of me either, I think last year was a lot better than most in that aspect, but still terrible, and so far this season is one of the worst yet (early as it is).

I think Samsonov nailed it when he said "we have to shoot more."

I know not many Habs fans think to highly of Audette's time here, but I really miss his 8 shot games. I wish someone would do that now. Heck, I wish Ryder was taking 8 shots a game, but I would be happy even if it were Downey.

barry33 wrote:

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 but the more I see of this guy the more I realize that given the minutes he has played and the key situations, he desrves every penny he gets. Memo to Bob. GET HIM SOME HELP!!!!!!!!!!

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You got it Barry. Saku is pretty much carrying this team( key goals, asssist, faceoffs, PP, PK, etc).

If Gainey does not get some back up help for him...I worry about another injury. And I would not blame And-o...I would blame Gainey.

JohnM wrote:

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So instead of searching for that big #1 center a la Joe Thornton which is impossible to find, let's grab someone to compliment Koivu. A 3 million dollar 2nd line center with some size. Something Bonk was supposed to be. It might have to wait until next year since we can't get rid of Bonk and we don't have the cap space.

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Johnny we can debate til the cows come home whether Saks should be a number one center, number 2, or 1a and 1b. The fact is that if I were the coach I do not play him on the PP, PK, plus his regualr line duty. If I am coach, I play him about 60% of the minutes they are playing him now. And, to be brutally frank, I am shocked that Gainey and Carbo do not see this. If Koivu goes down we have crap up the middle. Plain and simple.

wright wrote:

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Koviu has averaged in the three regular season games 18 minutes and 56 seconds of playing time. A lot of numer one centremen average around 20 minutes a game, Brindamour was upwards of 23 minutes a game last season, so the numbers don't exactly indicate that Carbo is overplaying Saks. Plekanec, thus far has averaged 17 minutes and 58 seconds a game, so there is not a great disparity in playing time. Of course Koviu plays full out all the time, and his contribution and production makse him appear very prominent in terms of ice time.

There just is not an abundance of quality centermen out there. Compounding the problem is even if you can land a decent center, will he have the chemistry with the likes of Samsanov and Kovalev. Calgary which has depth at defence have tried it seems like for years to find a good center for Iginla, not always an easy fit. Certain Gainey recognizes the problem, but he might not be able to solve it so easily.

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Nicely stated wright. I do think Koivu is one of the top 10-12 centers in the game.  So in my mind he is a number one center with a very small frame.

So if I were Gainey, I would be looking for exactly what JohnM said. Find a quality number two center with some size. I imagine that will have to wait until the end of the season( supposing the habs are playoff bound...they look to deal with a non playoff contender late in the season).

Just pulled out my trusty hockey news yearbook to look at the various #1 centres in the league.

I agree with And-o's category (and that Koivu doesn't quite fit in it, although I still value him extra for his inspiring desire; And-o may not believe in it, but I guarantee the dressing room does, ...see Chris Higgins for details), but these guys are pretty rare. That's why Gainey's having a hard time finding one. In fact, many of the better teams in the league go without a true #1 workhorse centre (Anaheim, Atlanta - if they're for real, Buffalo - Drury and Briere are very Koivu-esque, Calgary - as we all know, etc....)

Some that And-o didn't mention:
-Patrice Bergeron: maybe he's not there yet, but he's close, and already logs c.20 minutes a game
-Eric Staal
-Patrick Marleau
-Brad Richards
-Olli Jokinen

PLUS the borderline calls

-Sergei Fedorov (in theory)
-Shawn Horcoff (a poor man's #1, but still a #1)
-Jason Arnott (sort of)
-Alexei Yashin (in theory)

It's worth mentioning that the teams with 2 killer centres (Pittsburgh, Carolina, San Jose, Tampa Bay) are not exactly impressing right now, and several of those teams are a bit weak on the wings.

And-o named 9 guys. If you count all 9 I list, that's 18 true #1 centres for 30 teams, and 4 greedy teams have 8 of them.

Times are tough! Somehow I don't think we are the only team interested in Modano. But anyway, do we really believe Dallas would remove his captaincy just before trading him?

Ando wrote:

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Wow!  This discussion is great gang!

And-o is steadfast though in his belief that Koivu's minutes should be capped at 15-to-16 MAXIMUM...and there is very little need for him to be killing penalties - EVER (And-o just shakes his head in disbelief at that...talk about tempting fate)!

Also, we need to clear the air on Radek's role...he (from Gainey's own directive) will NEVER be the Habs #2 guy, since he has become the designated 'closer' on the checking line...and (as And-o has said since day one) he came at the right price at the right time.

...and as a side note.  Before we jump the gun and label any guy a legitimate #1 centre...And-o would like to point out the capabilities of guys (young and old) like Sundin, Sakic, LeCavalier, Modano, Thornton, Forsberg, Malkin, Brind'Amour and Spezza (just a few for example) who are all capable of logging 25-to-30 minutes game-after-game-after-game-after-game. 

Not to bash Saku...because this thread has been above that...but he isn't in that category...and that is what And-o is talking about!!!

...and Bob does see this!!!  Perhaps soon he'll surprise us all!!!

(GREAT THREAD THOUGH GANG!)  

 

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Well define legitimate number one center...

No Koivu is not Thornton, but he is perhaps top 10-12 in the league in terms of what he brings...

First line center to me means...the center in question would be the #1 guy on more than half the teams...I think Koivu fits that definition.

You know who would be a good pick up if possible...Jokinen( let's hope Florida struggles this year).

plouf wrote:

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Muller, I'm a big Koivu fan, but I'd put him closer to #15-20 (and I don't think I'm being outrageous there, in either direction). I think he's ELITE in terms of attitude and what he is showing the younger players, but he can't carry the team on his shoulders like a Forsberg, a Sakic, or a Kovalev (haha).

Still, that's fine. No complaints with Koivu, or his salary. Guys like him don't grow on trees. We just need someone else in the top 40 or so centres on our team, and Plekanec isn't there yet, Bonk is no longer there, etc...

It's clear from looking at teams like Buffalo, Anaheim, Calgary, etc...that you CAN get by without a workhorse #1. But we are still too thin there right now,. and Koivu's at risk because of it.

Scary thing is, we all seem to agree on this. Maybe that's why we're splitting hairs? We can't stand the wait while Bob goes out and gets someone. Please?

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Yep. But I still place Koivu top 10-12. Actually that is a good topic for this thread. List 12 centers who you would rather have. I'll start:

1. crosby

2 thornton

3 lecavlier

4 iginla

Well that is a start...

Probably true. I like these possibilities.I was actually thinking sort of about the #3(!) centre in Florida [anyone care to guess who?]

Right again, wright.
You should change the spelling of your last name - another great post.

Ando wrote:

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Well Mulsey...And-o would begin with everyone from my list above...then all on Plouffy's list...then And-o could easily add another ten younger guys who haven't necessarily asserted themselves yet (eg.  Mueller, Carter, Jeff Richards, Kessel, Staal Jr.).  Next, And-o would turn towards 5-or-10 #1's from 'yester-years' (eg. Lindros, Primeau).

...I tell ya Mulsey, Saku is just simply in the second tier of centres.  His peer group falls more along the lines of Comrie, Briere, Drury, etc... 

...and don't forget Jarome Iginla is a winger...and all those teams that don't have a true legitimate #1 centre all seem to have at least one MEGA-STAR winger...and/or they just plain stink!!!  Kovalchuk in Atlanta.  Ovechkin in Washington.  Iggy in Calgary.   

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And-o

are you saying you would take Lindros now...right now...over Koivu?

Iginla not a center being said. I have listed Three and will add Forsberg that...right now...not two year from now( Carter), that I would take over Koivu...right now I mean.

And-o, can you do that? and list 12 centers...in their present form...

I am building an argument of course. I await anyone's response on this.

-- Edited by Muller93 at 13:06, 2006-10-14

Nil d wrote:

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For a list of the top scoring centres in 2005/06, see this link:

http://www2.nhl.com/nhlstats/app

Saku is around #30.

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Nil'd

Top centers in terms of points which is not a true measure. Regardless, thank you for the list. It helped me increase my numbers. I count 15 that I would place ahead of Koivu.