I can't believe this...

Habtastic · Guru

I can't believe this...

Ando · Guru

Habtastic wrote:

...is he becoming more of distraction by being the focus of the team?

BECOMING more of a distraction?!?!?!?!

...that's like being a little bit pregnant!

Nil d · Guru

Ando wrote:

Habtastic wrote:

...is he becoming more of distraction by being the focus of the team?

BECOMING more of a distraction?!?!?!?!

...that's like being a little bit pregnant!

Or like saying "And-o has made a few anti-Saku rants".

Power · Veteran Member

Habtastic wrote:

1 but is he becoming more of distraction by being the focus of the team? Worse than that, might his potential retirement cost Gainey the ability to properly meet the needs of the team by it coming too late in the Summer for Gainey to respond properly? If Koivu retires or puts himself on the IR for the season, what kind of deal can Gainey expect to get from his fellow GMs? Will he will be forced into a band-aid situation which may cost the momentum the team has been building?

2 Also, how will the players react at training camp? Koivu wants to test his eye in the intensity of a game situation, but who on the Habs would take the chance of being the person that puts Koivu out? Can the players go all out with that possibility on their mind?

1. Why is he the focus of the team, what are the reasons for that? Great player? No that isn´t the reason. Decent player who has good leadership qualitys? Nope. Then what it is? He is the captain of French Canadian team and don’t speak French and has been injured some part of almost every season that he has been in Habs roster. Yeah that is the reason.

Well, what i want to know that how is this possible that there has been what half dozen GM´s in Koivu era and not one of them did nothing to this problem. Every time there have been chance to let him go they improve his last contract, why?? Or why didn´t they trade him away when he was younger??

Barry have been saying it all the time now that BG knew exactly what was the situation on Koivus eye injury and he had all summer to do something , and did he? nope or at least he wasn´t too blockbusting(nice word from dictionary)?
If BG is forced to get someone to help our weak center department, other GM´s have all the cards because they know that he(BG) has some problems not them and force him to give much to gain little(that is business)

2. I don’t think that Koivus participation makes no difference to other players who are in battle for a last places at NHL team. Maybe Ribs, that would make him number one center

I have one question for all of you there, is Habs so dull team nowadays that there is no other thing to discuss than Koivu because there have been about dozen of new started post about Koivu in last couple of days. There have been so little conversation about our prospects that I have problems to remember any of them, and you guys and girls who live there where everything happens have obligation to write these things, because some of you have possibilitys to see these players in action. They are much more interesting than Saks because every one of us knows everything that there is to know about him.

Don´t be mad to me Habtastic, although I try to hijack your post

JohnM · Guru

People have nothing better to talk about so they rant and rave about nothing. It's almost as bad as a Leafs board these days.

Habtastic · Guru

Well Power, I have posted many times about the prospects and put up articles without responses. Look at the threads I have started and you will see lots of info on prospects. And John, I have always been a Koivu supporter and the only reason I put up this thread is because I wanted to lay all the issues and concerns together in one post and play a bit of 'Devil's Advocate', as well as show that this situation is even affecting people who have always supported Koivu.

I asked some honest and fair questions and I was hoping for similar responses, which some have given.

Habtastic

JohnM · Guru

I dunno Habtastic, seems more like you are being brainwashed.

If you think about it, the media chose to cover this point over others because they have nothing else to talk about. Now you along with others are choosing to do the same.

Instead of concentrating on other parts of the team, you are focusing on Koivu. He has not asked to be focused on, all he said was he needs to get into some games to see how the eye will react.

Last year they were harassing Theo for the most part, this year it seems like they will be after Koivu. They even asked Johnson if he can speak french, what a bunch of crap.

That being said, if you or anyone else had cancer or were going blind, would you leave your spouse or family because it would be hard on them to cope with it? That question is as stupid as the posts about Saku leaving the Habs because of his sickness/injury troubles.

Power · Veteran Member

Habtastic wrote:

Well Power, I have posted many times about the prospects and put up articles without responses. Look at the threads I have started and you will see lots of info on prospects. And John, I have always been a Koivu supporter and the only reason I put up this thread is because I wanted to lay all the issues and concerns together in one post and play a bit of 'Devil's Advocate', as well as show that this situation is even affecting people who have always supported Koivu.

I asked some honest and fair questions and I was hoping for similar responses, which some have given.

Habtastic

This was my point, no discussion. Yes i have seen some posts and even some responses. I just think that we should have more discussion about the future of Habs not the past all the time and i mean all the time. I didn´t mean to jump on you, but you just happened to be the one who i assaulted.

AB Habman · Guru

Habtastic wrote:

I may be agreeing with And-o... at least partially. Koivu has had a good run with the Habs and has been an excellent leader and a source of inspiration, but is he becoming more of distraction by being the focus of the team? Worse than that, might his potential retirement cost Gainey the ability to properly meet the needs of the team by it coming too late in the Summer for Gainey to respond properly? If Koivu retires or puts himself on the IR for the season, what kind of deal can Gainey expect to get from his fellow GMs? Will he will be forced into a band-aid situation which may cost the momentum the team has been building? Also, how will the players react at training camp? Koivu wants to test his eye in the intensity of a game situation, but who on the Habs would take the chance of being the person that puts Koivu out? Can the players go all out with that possibility on their mind? Is there no way that Saku can take out personal insurance and scrimmage with a non-NHL team to check first? This situation seems to be very similar to what is happening in Phili with Primeau and I really wonder how much damage it is doing to the team. I know the pay-off is great for both teams if they are healthy, but I just have to wonder if it is all worth it, both for the player and their chance of making their condition permanent, or for the team and the handcuffing it creates. Players want to do everything they can to extend their career, but how far does it go? Can any of you semi-pro players let us in on the effect on the team? I can't believe I agree with And-o... Habtastic

I like that you're being objective and seeing this Saks thing from a different angle.

Power to answer your question about the Habs being dull and it leads us to debate about Koivu...isn't possible that it is because the two go hand in hand. Since the start of the Saks era, the Habs have been nothing but dull!

Many of us admire Saks as a person because of the battles he always seems to have to get through but when is it going to be enough that the team has to be put to the fore-front? The team and its success has to be the priority and with Saks ten year chapter here, what success have we had as a team? We are now in a stage where we're improving despite Sak's battles because we now have more depth than before. You already know that I feel we'd of been better off if BG would of not resigned him but used that big money to grab someone else like Arnott, Carter or even Shanahan. I just don't think Gainey had enough money in reserve to sign that kind of player.

The reality is, we're stuck with "Mr. No Trade Me" and the debates and distractions that go along with him whether Johnny or others like it or not!

JohnM · Guru

What's funny is that people are whining about not being able to attract players to Montreal and when a player actually wants to play here you whine that he is here.

You complain BG doesn't sign anyone and when he signs someone you complain again.

Were you happy when the Habs won the cup in 1993 or did you complain they took to long to win it that year?

Muller93 · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

The reality is, we're stuck with "Mr. No Trade Me" and the debates and distractions that go along with him whether Johnny or others like it or not!

AB, what a load of cow dung. What distractions? What debate?

Let's just see...Hmmmmmmmmmm, three legendary hab captains all have gone on record stating Koivu is one of the best leaders they have seen in the game( Muller, Carbo, Gainey).

The "debate" centers around fools who are trapped in a time wharp and forget about the realities of the NHL. So much parity now that the habs will be lucky to get to the semi-finals twice over the next 20-25 years. Then blame Koivu for all the "lack of success". huh? Like I said, put anyone in their over the last 10 years and the outcome would have been the same.

Barry generally strikes a healthy balance between what is pure BS and what is reality. To keep debating and farting around with the whole Koivu topic is unfounded. The truth lies somewhere in the middle as always.

I would however, have a healthy debate with Barry over what resulted in the downfall with Carolina. Unquestionably it was the loss of Koivu IMO. But whatever, that is irrelevant.

Koivu is a great leader who WANTS to play in Montreal. He bleeds the red white and blue. So unless you want to cheer for a great year and wish Koivu all the best for 06-07...shut your pie hole...

-- Edited by Muller93 at 14:28, 2006-09-07

-- Edited by Muller93 at 14:30, 2006-09-07

Power · Veteran Member

AB Habman wrote:

Power to answer your question about the Habs being dull and it leads us to debate about Koivu...isn't possible that it is because the two go hand in hand. Since the start of the Saks era, the Habs have been nothing but dull!

You already know that I feel we'd of been better off if BG would of not resigned him but used that big money to grab someone else like Arnott, Carter or even Shanahan. I just don't think Gainey had enough money in reserve to sign that kind of player.

You can not really blame Saku about the team being dull. The profile of the team is not the most colourfull and does it have to be when You look at the last Stanley Cup-teams? But the point is, there must be more than one man to talk about. I at least can`t wait the season start, with or without Saku(preferably with). The money spended to Koivu was too much, I think he would have settled for less. The world has kicked Saku more than enough, and I believe it gives him ability to be a good captain. You have more experience when You haven`t had everything on a silverplate...

ScottishHAB · Veteran Member

OK!

1)Is Kovalev going to produce the goods more nights than not this year?

2)Is Samsonov the answer to any shortfall you can think of?

3)Will Ribs get us 70 points?

4)is Koivus eye OK(oops sorry...)

barry33 · Guru

ScottishHAB wrote:

OK!

1)Is Kovalev going to produce the goods more nights than not this year?

2)Is Samsonov the answer to any shortfall you can think of?

3)Will Ribs get us 70 points?

4)is Koivus eye OK(oops sorry...)

Scotty- those are ALL questions that will be answered..hopefully with a resounding YES. (you can add "Is Huet the real deal?"). If those things happen and we get some unexpected contributions from the kids, we will be fine. But Aye laddy...I hates ta hav ta put so much fate in dat lazy lad Ribs

Johab · Guru

Is our next cup with or without Koivu as captain/ or even as a hab? Seems like even though he has CONSISTANTLY..yes one of the few things he is consistant at besides injuries...is he SCORES POINTS. Something the habs lack ALOT of, and that is why he is kept here, along with many other reasons. Yes, it is fustrating that he KEEPs getting injured, but these are NOT normal injuries he is getting all the time. I dont exactl consider cancer and a wild stick the the face his fault. Knee injury...yes, somewhat his fault. But he is back EVERY time giving it his ALL, which is much more than alot of other players on the habs give.

Before i rant on TOO much im going to end this here. Simply answer the question i first preposed

Fatherhab · Senior Member

Johab wrote:

Is our next cup with or without Koivu as captain/ or even as a hab? Seems like even though he has CONSISTANTLY..yes one of the few things he is consistant at besides injuries...is he SCORES POINTS. Something the habs lack ALOT of, and that is why he is kept here, along with many other reasons. Yes, it is fustrating that he KEEPs getting injured, but these are NOT normal injuries he is getting all the time. I dont exactl consider cancer and a wild stick the the face his fault. Knee injury...yes, somewhat his fault. But he is back EVERY time giving it his ALL, which is much more than alot of other players on the habs give.

Before i rant on TOO much im going to end this here. Simply answer the question i first preposed

To answer your question, my opinion is-- no-- Koivu will not lead this team to their next Stanley Club. 7 years his clock has been ticking as captain, and soon we will have to call it a grandfather clock.

Now callling me a fool or idiot is your right, but don't kid yourself, name calling won't work or scare me off and especially NOT stop me from posting an opinion here without insulting others members.

AB Habman · Guru

JohnM wrote:

What's funny is that people are whining about not being able to attract players to Montreal and when a player actually wants to play here you whine that he is here.

You complain BG doesn't sign anyone and when he signs someone you complain again.

Were you happy when the Habs won the cup in 1993 or did you complain they took to long to win it that year?

Just a bunch of generalizing with no facts. It doesn't deserve a response unless I know who you are talking about. Is it Downey?

AB Habman · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

AB Habman wrote:

The reality is, we're stuck with "Mr. No Trade Me" and the debates and distractions that go along with him whether Johnny or others like it or not!

AB, what a load of cow dung. What distractions? What debate?

Let's just see...Hmmmmmmmmmm, three legendary hab captains all have gone on record stating Koivu is one of the best leaders they have seen in the game( Muller, Carbo, Gainey).

The "debate" centers around fools who are trapped in a time wharp and forget about the realities of the NHL. So much parity now that the habs will be lucky to get to the semi-finals twice over the next 20-25 years. Then blame Koivu for all the "lack of success". huh? Like I said, put anyone in their over the last 10 years and the outcome would have been the same.

Barry generally strikes a healthy balance between what is pure BS and what is reality. To keep debating and farting around with the whole Koivu topic is unfounded. The truth lies somewhere in the middle as always.

I would however, have a healthy debate with Barry over what resulted in the downfall with Carolina. Unquestionably it was the loss of Koivu IMO. But whatever, that is irrelevant.

Koivu is a great leader who WANTS to play in Montreal. He bleeds the red white and blue. So unless you want to cheer for a great year and wish Koivu all the best for 06-07...shut your pie hole...

-- Edited by Muller93 at 14:28, 2006-09-07

-- Edited by Muller93 at 14:30, 2006-09-07

Muller, this doesn't pertain to being a Leader or Captian because there's several Habs that can more than fill that position!

The point is with Koivu, it's one bad luck year after another with him. It keeps effecting the team negatively because it's one patch job after another as Barry mentioned. Don't you ever wonder though that those patch jobs seem to be just as effective as Koivu? It's still a struggle to make the playoffs with or without him. He's what?...25th in first line center points when comparing to all teams in the league? It's about his effect on the team on the ice. Not effective enough to earn his big pay and of course useless when hurt.

It's not his fault he is prone to injury...just bad luck!

When the Habs move past that bad luck and the constant Koivu question marks is when, like Fatherhab mentioned the Habs win the Cup.

Can you honestly sit there and totally say that Saks injuries are great and positive for the team and it makes him a great leader???????????

It may make him strong personally to get through on battle after another but for the teams sake, it certainly is not a good situation!

You may need to re-read Habtastic's initial post. Obviously you'll never respect what I have to say relative to Koivu. It's about the Habs as the bigger picture!

Muller93 · Guru

AB and fatherhab,And-o

My rants pertain to the fact that the season has not even started and here you guys are with the negativity and hauling out you whiping boy before anything even happens.

In my opinion its just unwanted vibes.

AB Habman · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

AB and fatherhab,And-o

My rants pertain to the fact that the season has not even started and here you guys are with the negativity and hauling out you whiping boy before anything even happens.

In my opinion its just unwanted vibes.

Oh....OK then! This Saks thing is more unwanted vibes. Were all on the same page.

JohnM · Guru

I believe it has something to do with some posters being Habs critics more than being Habs fans. They'd rather bitch and moan than look forward to the upcoming season.

Habtastic · Guru

I will re-iterate that I like Saks a lot. I think he is an excellent captain and injuries of the past aside, I would like him to remain a Hab. My concern is the current injury and whether he could have scrimmaged earlier and seen a doctor earlier so that he could have given the green or red light to Gainey now, instead of a month from now when it may be too late to make a deal. I also wondered if the focus on him is positive (allows the others to stay under the radar) or negative (players not focused on the team/their game). That is the point of the thread, not 'Saku the bad/good'. :)

Habtastic

Muller93 · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

Oh....OK then! This Saks thing is more unwanted vibes. Were all on the same page.

yep...that post pretty much says it all. A true fan.

well, iIsay GOHABSGO!! Lets hope all Ribs work pays off and he challanges Koivu for top center! And best wishes to saku and les boys.

-- Edited by Muller93 at 19:51, 2006-09-07

Nil d · Guru

Habtastic wrote:

I will re-iterate that I like Saks a lot. I think he is an excellent captain and injuries of the past aside, I would like him to remain a Hab. My concern is the current injury and whether he could have scrimmaged earlier and seen a doctor earlier so that he could have given the green or red light to Gainey now, instead of a month from now when it may be too late to make a deal. I also wondered if the focus on him is positive (allows the others to stay under the radar) or negative (players not focused on the team/their game). That is the point of the thread, not 'Saku the bad/good'. :)

Habtastic

Habber, can you honestly believe that a highly-paid, pampered, professional athlete like Saku, playing for the world's classiest sport franchise, didn't go see a doctor as he should have? Surely the team's doctors and handlers would see to it that he gets world-class attention and treatment, on a timely manner. I think this is some sort of red herring. I don't know what exactly, but maybe some sort of way to manage down the expectations and reduce pressure.

I do believe the eye is not 100% if Saku says so, but I'm sure it's not because he didn't see his doctor enough.

barry33 · Guru

think this is some sort of red herring

Isnt that whay you used to catch down on the south Shore Nilsey?

Habtastic · Guru

I hadn't thought of that, Nil. Interesting idea. Here's hoping he is 100% for the season because I am pretty sure I would prefer to have him than not have him.

Habtastic

barry33 · Guru

Habtastic wrote:

I hadn't thought of that, Nil. Interesting idea. Here's hoping he is 100% for the season because I am pretty sure I would prefer to have him than not have him.

Habtastic

Randy- please do not allow the bleeding hearts to change the way you express yourself. Throughout your time on this board you have been nothing but a gentleman and express your opinion very well. What I do NOT like is the fact that as soon as anyone on this board has the nerve to even slightly question Koivu he is swarmed upon like the only hooker at a Shriner's convention hotel.

I have said it before. Just because a poster does not totall worship the ice that Koivu skates on, or questions his value to the club, should not make him a target for attacks. Habtastic made some good points. And he did it without sarcasm and without the bias that sometimes reflects the views of the "Anti-Saks and Pro-Saks" camps. Stop lumping all of us who from time to time question Koivu's future or value to the club as being anti-koivu. At times it reminds me of when you were a kid and someone had the nerve to say "Your momma wears army boots"...dem's fightin' words!

Muller93 · Guru

Not worshiping and draging a guy through the mud before he even steps on the ice to start the season...??? I mean really. Geez. The guy had his eye nearly poked out. I think it lacks class to start the yibber yabberin at this point.

Nil d · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Habtastic wrote:

I hadn't thought of that, Nil. Interesting idea. Here's hoping he is 100% for the season because I am pretty sure I would prefer to have him than not have him.

Habtastic

Randy- please do not allow the bleeding hearts to change the way you express yourself. Throughout your time on this board you have been nothing but a gentleman and express your opinion very well. What I do NOT like is the fact that as soon as anyone on this board has the nerve to even slightly question Koivu he is swarmed upon like the only hooker at a Shriner's convention hotel.

I have said it before. Just because a poster does not totall worship the ice that Koivu skates on, or questions his value to the club, should not make him a target for attacks. Habtastic made some good points. And he did it without sarcasm and without the bias that sometimes reflects the views of the "Anti-Saks and Pro-Saks" camps. Stop lumping all of us who from time to time question Koivu's future or value to the club as being anti-koivu. At times it reminds me of when you were a kid and someone had the nerve to say "Your momma wears army boots"...dem's fightin' words!

That's carrying things a bit far, don't you think? I simply was questioning the thought out there that Saku didn't get adequate medical attention during the off-season, and that the Habs' organization would have allowed that to happen.

Habtastic is the consummate gentleman of this board (the male equivalent of Mrs. Hab). I'd have a hard time voicing a disagreement with one of his posts even if I did disagree!

But then, I'm just a bleeding heart.....................

barry33 · Guru

Nilsey baby- chilax my soon to be neighbour. My statement was a general reference to the reaction to posts that are even semi-anti Koivu and not directed to you. I just feel that we ALL need to be more tolerant to views of others, myself included.

Because Habtastic had the gall..the audacity..the NERVE to even bring up the topic of Koivu in a less than positive light, he has been told he was brainwashed. I don't know. Maybe just too much Saki over there Randy and you are confusing Saki with Saku?

-- Edited by barry33 at 09:18, 2006-09-08