Signs that your city doesn't deserve a team...

brooklynhabfan · Guru

Signs that your city doesn't deserve a team...

Johab · Guru

AMEN to that!! The is NO WAY a team in Winnipeg or Halifax or Hamilton or Quebec City cant hold a team. To be honest i have no idea how Quebec and Winnipeg lost their teams ( i have a feeling it has to do with the salaries sky rocketing in the 90's ) but if a team like Carolina can make the playoffs and make it to the finals ( or this far anyway ) and STILL not sell out games, then im sure a team CAN survive in canada while selling out EVERY playoff game! Get rid of these teams that dont derserve hockey. Florida only needs 1 team, Carolina can go and we got teams for Winny and Halifax hamilton or Quebec again!

Jedah · Guru

You think attendance is bad in Raleigh... try putting a team in a miniscule market such as Hamilton and you'll see bad attendance. The only Canadian market that deserves a team that doesn't have one, I feel, is Quebec. I don't know about Halifax and how much tourism and stuff there is there, so they might be able to as well. But I doubt any others could, and in order to get a team, a big company or something has to own the team, and most conglomerates are American. So I doubt we'll be seeing any new Canadian teams anytime soon.

And Brooklyn, I agree, Go Sabres!!

brooklynhabfan · Guru

Well, reality does have a big ugly head in this department (see my picture for a close approximation)

Quebec has a very low average salary, as so much of the employment is Government-related (sorry, not a judgement, just a checkable fact), and miniscule media scope

Marcel Aubut (I think ke's known as "Le Bastard" up there) has been trying for over a decade to leverage funds for a new arena (that he lost the Nordiques in a grand bluff doesn't help his cause), but the public coffers (rightly so) are staying firmly shut. The Colisee should have been demolished long ago, and isn't fit for a new team.

Halifax suffers some of the same problems, and the MC isn't big enough or Sky-Boxy enough to be a contender, so again, new arena.

My only bet on Halifax getting a new arena of an appropriate size would be if they get the Commonwealth games - we'll see, but a 19,000 seater filled with boxes just doesn't make sense there

Winnipeg has a new arena, but it's too small (15,000) and has too few Boxes to compete, so unless they want to charge a ton for tickets (can't see that), they would have to expand it (not likely), or build something new (after $40 million of tax payer money went into something just open, again not likely)

Which leaves the only Metropolitan area in Canada with the bucks, media market and will to have new construction occur... You guessed it, Toronto, which is the only place that has seriously discussed having a team, even if it is the second one there.

"But the Leafs run the place and won't ever allow another team to be in the market" I hear you say

It's the same thing the Oriole's management said about a team in Washington, and look what it got them (sweetheart deals were part of it, but nonetheless)

But then the prospective owners of said TO team would have the option of building in a host of American cities, where labour costs are lower, ticket prices are higher, media revenues are far greater, etc, etc, plus the advantage of an often distracted public (sorry Americans) who have allowed private businesses to rob them blind on ridiculous arena/stadium deals, so why would they look North? (if you're interested, The Texas Rangers ballpark has a particularly interesting tale behind it, just google away, and put a cushion under your jaw)

Even now, the Oilers and Flames hang on by the thinnest of financial threads, with emotion keeping them there as much as good business sense. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is gone 15 years from now.

Sad to say, but I see the league getting smaller before it has a new Canadian franchise... Long live arena football and lacrosse, geez!

Johab · Guru

Awesome avatar Jedah! You make Johab Jealous...

Jedah · Guru

Johab wrote:

Awesome avatar Jedah! You make Johab Jealous...

Thank you! I spent at least a good hour on it today because a few of my friends had told me they didn't like the old one. It's really nice to see my hard work is appreciated

-- Edited by Jedah at 18:32, 2006-05-29

brooklynhabfan · Guru

Johab wrote:

Awesome avatar Jedah! You make Johab Jealous...

Brook-o thinks it's awesome

MC Girl · Guru

Jedah wrote:

Johab wrote: Awesome avatar Jedah! You make Johab Jealous... Thank you! I spent at least a good hour on it today because a few of my friends had told me they didn't like the old one. It's really nice to see my hard work is appreciated -- Edited by Jedah at 18:32, 2006-05-29

I like the new one

but the old one was great too....

Nil d · Guru

brooklynhabfan wrote:

Halifax suffers some of the same problems, and the MC isn't big enough or Sky-Boxy enough to be a contender, so again, new arena. My only bet on Halifax getting a new arena of an appropriate size would be if they get the Commonwealth games - we'll see, but a 19,000 seater filled with boxes just doesn't make sense there Winnipeg has a new arena, but it's too small (15,000) and has too few Boxes to compete, so unless they want to charge a ton for tickets (can't see that), they would have to expand it (not likely), or build something new (after $40 million of tax payer money went into something just open, again not likely)

I agree with your excellent analysis, Brook (and deleted some of it above only for the sake of brevity).

Halifax is sadly not big enough nor does it have enough large corporations to buy skyboxes for an NHL team. The only way it could ever work here is if some large corporation - say Sobey's - were to own the team and put up with a few $million in losses each year. And even at that, it could only work if (1) they built a new arena, say near the airport, with ample parking (the Metro Centre is not easily expandable and is in a terrible spot to get to from outside) and (2) they signed Sidney Crosby to a 20-year contract.

As much as I hate to say it, Moncton would be a better choice. It has a smaller population by itself, but a larger drawing area within 3 hours (which includes all of Halifax, plus St. John, Fredericton, Charlottetown, etc.). They could build an NHL rink right where the Coliseum is, and have one of the world's richest families to own it - the Irvings. (Or the McCains, if K.C.'s boys are not intrested).

I think Winnipeg could work in today's NHL, but why in the hell did they build a 15,000 seat stadium?! That's too big for junior or AHL, and too small for the NHL. What did they have in mind? World Juniors once every 20 years?

Quebec can support a team, I think, and should have a team, as should Winnipeg again, if they can somehow add 5,000 seats to the new rink.

Just don't give Hamilton an NHL team; Toronto would want one too.

Jedah · Guru

Thanks, Brooklyn and MC. I really appreciate comments like those. And MC, you must love that it features Huet

And I'm glad people like it, because I sat and read a tutorial on how to make that ice effect. lol

brooklynhabfan · Guru

Nil d wrote:

I think Winnipeg could work in today's NHL, but why in the hell did they build a 15,000 seat stadium?

Thanks, Nil.

I think Winnipeg's decision reflects the reality of the situation. It wouldn't have been that much more money to build a bigger arena, but most likely the studies came back, and showed that hockey just wasn't as sure a bet as Truck Pulls, fake INXS concerts and Stars on Ice. If they thought that the combo of a willing ownership group and a sure money maker was there, you cn rest assured that it would be a 19,000 seater.

The fact that there ae so few boxes there reflects the fact that Winnipeg just doesn't have that sort of corporate structure to support more.

The problem with Moncton is concentration. While the numbers are there to fill the seats, the media is spread out and doesn't have the critical mass to make it viable.

Having a Stones concert do well is one thing, because gate revenue is all you care about, and the fact that it is a one-off event will draw people from quite a distance. Getting season ticket holders to make a 6 hour round trip to see a game 40 times a year is a much harder task.

gfeaver · Veteran Member

I know that Copps Coliseum would need major work to be suitable for the NHL. Not to mention the fact that if Hamilton gets a Professional Hockey team, Toronto will want one too.
I would love for Quebec City to re-enter the league. Those Habs-Nordiques playoff Series were so much fun to watch. Michel Bergeron as their coach added as much emotion as the players..
I agree , Halifax would likely be too small a market. Maybe they could sell out for the first couple years, but as the novelty wore off, so would the ticket sales. Then again, after putting teams in such hockey hotbeds as Carolina, Nashville and Atlanta, Gary Bettman would have a better handle on it...

Andy · Veteran Member

Hamilton a bad market??? 30 minute drive from downtown hamilton to Toronto. About 30 minutes to Niagara area. There are alot of people in the GTA who can't get tickets to the ACC and I am sure people would go to Hamilton to catch the game. The city may be crap but it is easily accesible to the GTA. So bad hockey market , I don't think so.

beakermania · Senior Member

Andy wrote:

Hamilton a bad market??? 30 minute drive from downtown hamilton to Toronto. About 30 minutes to Niagara area. There are alot of people in the GTA who can't get tickets to the ACC and I am sure people would go to Hamilton to catch the game. The city may be crap but it is easily accesible to the GTA. So bad hockey market , I don't think so.

30 minutes to T.O.... Sure at 3:00am, but not anytime you'd be trying to get people to a hockey game. During rush hours its atleast a 1.5-2hour drive. Stupid QEW.... Oh sure theres the 407, but its not always smooth sailing either, and only takes you to Burlington, you'll still get traffic from there.

Jedah · Guru

Andy wrote:

Hamilton a bad market??? 30 minute drive from downtown hamilton to Toronto. About 30 minutes to Niagara area. There are alot of people in the GTA who can't get tickets to the ACC and I am sure people would go to Hamilton to catch the game. The city may be crap but it is easily accesible to the GTA. So bad hockey market , I don't think so.

When you can't get/don't want tickets at the ACC like me, do what I do and get tickets in Buffalo. It's a beautiful arena and instead of seeing the Leafs, you get to see the Sabres. So that argument is moot.

Besides, we don't need 3 teams in the Southern Ontario region.

Andy · Veteran Member

Lol, and the drive into T.O is fine and dandy !!!!! Look at the facts, when people go to sporting events they also use the train,bus etc. Everytime I go to ACC or dome, I hop on the train, and there are plenty of people on the train doing the same also. The same could be used for Hamilton.

And plus driving through the Q.E.W at 6p.m from oakville to Hamilton is not busy. The main rush is between 4 to 6:00. Unless your hockey game starts at 6 p.m your screwed. Heck I can leave Oakville at 5 p.m and catch a Sabres game at 7 and that is going through the border. Have done it before and I made it in time to grab a beer before the game.

Andy · Veteran Member

As for southern ontario having three teams. Ottawa is like an hour drive from Montreal. All because there is a province border does that mean it is ok???? So why does Hamilton get screwed?? I bet it would be easier to get to game in Hamilton , then in Kanata where the Sens play.

Look at the state of New york, 4 teams. Jersey, buffalo, isles, and rangers. The main arguement is that they have a greater population, but the interset is not there. The isles have crappy attenedance, Jersey has won 3 cups in ten years and they still can't sell out a playoff game nevermind a regular season game.

So really do I have a valid arguement or not?

brooklynhabfan · Guru

Andy wrote:

So really do I have a valid arguement or not?

Well, the logic might be there, but Hamilton won't see a team in our lifetime - Number one on the list is that it's caught between two large, overlapping media markets that are already served by teams. Hamilton doesn't even have it's own TV station, if I'm not mistaken. Besides, if an investor has a choice between Hamilton, with it's higher labour cost and weaker economy, or somewhere growing and filled with cheap workers and loose public bond issues (like Las Vegas or Portland, Oregon) it's a no brainer where the money's going.

As far as the New York State argument goes, it's not really valid. First off, I'm not sure where you're getting the "There's no interest" point from. If there was no interest, why are there an equal number of regular starters on the Habs born in New York as there are in Quebec? It's a bit of an old, tired myth, along the lines of "Americans are all stupid, violent, fill-in-the-blank with whatever silly misconception is the flavour of the month"

Have you been down here? In addition to the ton of Canadians (myself included, we secretly run the place) and Europeans (loads of Russians) in New York, there's enough truly dedicated American fans to fill up MSG every night. And if you think they aren't wild about the game, come down here next time they win a cup and see the parade.

The islanders don't sell tickets because they have a depressing old arena that's hard to get to and have been inconsistent performers, but they have media revenues which rival all but one Canadian team, just because of the sheer size of the market. Add on the fact that owning them is an avenue to possible real estate development tie-ins, and the sense is there to be had

The Devils (who 8 million people would argue don't play in New York State) play in the middle of a swamp which always has gridlocked traffic associated with it. Wait 'till they move to Newark and see how filled that place gets.

Buffalo is so far from the majority of the population of New York ( a 400 mile drive for me) that it may as well be in another state.

Besides, it may look on a map like the Rangers, Isles and Devils play close to each other, but the vast majority of people who live in those areas don't travel that much to the others. It's odd, but in the city here, I only know one person who owns a car, so it can be a bit like "Escape From New York" trying to get out. While I've been to quite a few Devils games (it's worth the trip to see an actual hockey team, sorry Rangers fans), I've only traveled out to Nassau Coliseum once, and have no plans to return unless they play the habs in the playoffs.

As I said above, there's little chance of a team moving to Canada (unless the tax situation changes and the population explodes, God forbid) and even less chance of a new franchise being awarded.

What I do see happening, as the losses pile up for so many teams, is a realization that the game just isn't that popular enough as a whole to sustain so many teams. Look for a 22 (or less) team league by 2020.

Arena football is just so much cheaper...

Andy · Veteran Member

So an old arena gives excuse to having no attendance???. And how about Jersey???

I know Hamilton won't get a team, but you never answered my quesiton with Ottawa??

brooklynhabfan · Guru

Andy wrote:

So an old arena gives excuse to having no attendance???. And how about Jersey???

I know Hamilton won't get a team, but you never answered my quesiton with Ottawa??

Question 1: Yes, no one wants to spend 2 hours in a depressing place, if you want a grey, paint-peeling experience, it's cheaper to go renew your drivers license. Newer arenas are more fun, have more revenue producing amenities, and are designed to reap all that filthy skybox lucre. All that can add up to the cash to buy a winning team, which adds to filling the building. It's not a lack of Islanders fans. If it was, their TV rights wouldn't be worth more than the Habs' TV rights. (again, not my opinion, but a checkable fact)

In fact, 4 of the 7 lowest valued franchises are Canadian teams (Canucks, Senators, Oilers and Flames) and the "Worthless" Islanders are only worth (as a selling value) between 9 and 30 million less than the Habs, depending on whose estimate you go by. Even the Leafs are only ranked 7th... Not a great ad for investment north of the border. To kick it in the teeth further, Manchester United and Chelsea of the English Premier League have the same value as the entire NHL.

Question 2: I'll cut and paste the Jersey reason from my previous post, since I have a feeling it might have slipped under your radar:

The Devils (who 8 million people would argue don't play in New York State) play in the middle of a swamp which always has gridlocked traffic associated with it. Wait 'till they move to Newark and see how filled that place gets.
Kanata seems like downtown compared to the Meadowlands...

I wasn't sure I had to address the Ottawa question, but since you ask, Ottawa is the Nation's capital, and had an NHL history. In addition to all the massive law firms associated with Parliament, they have Fortune 500 companies (Corel) and a rich, rich (daft?) owner who was willing to build the Arena out of his own pocket, (including the access highway), even though he pays 10% of his gate to the provincial government, and that doesn't include the insane property taxes.

Ottawa-Hull also has a distinct media market, with their own TV stations, and no competition in broadcast range. It has nothing to do with the provincial border. Besides, it's a weak argument, since the Sens have been on the brink of bankruptcy their entire exsitence (Rough Renegades though they may be). If Rod decides to bail, no one in their right mind would keep the team there.

So now I've answered your questions, answer mine

Have you been down here? Do you know any Americans? And just where do you get the idea that there's no interest in hockey down here?

I'll leave you with a couple of images of the lack of interest:

That third picture is in Tampa, who over the last few seasons have had similar attendance to the Canucks, Flames, Oilers and Senators...

Andy · Veteran Member

The team plays in Kanata not Ottawa. And I never said anything about the rangers. Plus people always come out for a party, even the Argos parade does pretty well and their attendance is poor.

I didn't say there is complete no interest. But tell me what comes first the Yankess or Rangers/Devills????

What would come first in Hamilton - the Ticats or a NHL franchise????

How about Carolina Nascar or hockey??? Tampa also???

brooklynhabfan · Guru

Andy wrote:

The team plays in Kanata not Ottawa. And I never said anything about the rangers. Plus people always come out for a party, even the Argos parade does pretty well and their attendance is poor.

I didn't say there is complete no interest. But tell me what comes first the Yankess or Rangers/Devills????
What would come first in Hamilton - the Ticats or a NHL franchise????

How about Carolina Nascar or hockey??? Tampa also???

Andy, you need to read the whole thing, I'm aware they play in Kanata... I've been there, I've worked there on several occasions, and I mention it the line where I compare the Sens' arena to the Devils'

Kanata seems like downtown compared to the Meadowlands...

The Yankees might be more popular, but it's a ridiculous comparison. People are allowed to like other sports than hockey, and many Yankees fans are also rangers fans

Besides, the Rangers are the single most valuble franchise in the NHL

And I'm going to guess since you don't want to answer my question that you've in fact never been here.

Andy · Veteran Member

Never been there, but I am not aruguing about the rangers. It's alright I understand your points, and I know there will never be a team in Hamilton I really dont care