Koivu's hockey future uncertain

GirlsGoneHABS · Member

Koivu's hockey future uncertain

Nil d · Guru

Poignant story. This line stood out for me:

"..........the pictures of Koivu of other seasons linger in our minds, like jewels giving off bursts of light."

Now I know what that blinking banner is all about!

SpiderManNL · Guru

I get sick to my stomach every time I see that douch bag Williams on tv.....to think that pr*ck may have ended Koivu's career really ticks me off.

habs93 · Veteran Member

It was Hartford Whaler Ulf Samuelson who finished Pierre Mondou's career with a
high stick to the eye several years back.....

Key Lime · Guru

I think the bets line in the article is the last one "It's not a good feeling. You worry about it. But it's not cancer." I think it sums it all up, doesn't it?

Thanks GGW

MC Girl · Guru

I hope Williams gets boo'd everytime he touchs the puck & maybe have a little "eye for an eye" revenge. He'll deserve anything he gets.

I still think it was done on purpose. The moron went around highsticking the whole game.

Jedah · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

I hope Williams gets boo'd everytime he touchs the puck & maybe have a little "eye for an eye" revenge. He'll deserve anything he gets.
I still think it was done on purpose. The moron went around highsticking the whole game.

I don't think you can really go around saying this sort of thing was done on purpose. I sincerely doubt he was trying to injure Koivu like this, so cut the guy a little slack. Yes, he definitely does need to learn to keep his stick down, but there's no way he goes into a game with the intent to injure somebody.

MC Girl · Guru

Jedah wrote:

MC Girl wrote: I hope Williams gets boo'd everytime he touchs the puck & maybe have a little "eye for an eye" revenge. He'll deserve anything he gets. I still think it was done on purpose. The moron went around highsticking the whole game.

I don't think you can really go around saying this sort of thing was done on purpose. I sincerely doubt he was trying to injure Koivu like this, so cut the guy a little slack. Yes, he definitely does need to learn to keep his stick down, but there's no way he goes into a game with the intent to injure somebody.

We musta been watching different games then..... on numerous occasions his stick came up & injured someone in that game alone, even after Koivu's injury. (not to mention the other times/games that were played) The whole team played rough, they played dirty & yes I think the high stick by Williams was intentional... now maybe he didn't mean to injure his eye to this extent..... but it's a risk you take when you play that dirty.... as he did....

So, I hope he gets what he has coming because the end result could end the career of our captain, which means more to me than "cutting him slack"!!!

Cut Koivu a little slack..... stand up for the injustice that was tossed at him! The guy beats cancer & comes back just to have a weasel like Williams possibly take it all away... No way

-- Edited by MC Girl at 13:43, 2006-05-28

Jedah · Guru

Hey, I don't condone what Williams did. And if he ends Koivu's career, sure, I'll have some hard feelings towards him. I just don't think you can come out and say it was intentional. Clearly he wasn't trying to injure his eye the way he did, so at least we can agree with that, but I think he was simply trying to lift Koivu's stick. He high sticked some other players because he's obviously not very good at it, and is often careless with his stick. But there's no way he was trying to injure anyone.

Key Lime · Guru

Jedah wrote:

Hey, I don't condone what Williams did. And if he ends Koivu's career, sure, I'll have some hard feelings towards him. I just don't think you can come out and say it was intentional. Clearly he wasn't trying to injure his eye the way he did, so at least we can agree with that, but I think he was simply trying to lift Koivu's stick. He high sticked some other players because he's obviously not very good at it, and is often careless with his stick. But there's no way he was trying to injure anyone.

Let me ask you something Jedah...When a player high-sticks another, does he get penalized for it regardless if it's intentional or unintentional? We both know the answer is yes. Williams got off free as a bird.

The majority of the rules in sports and society are based on the outcome...and that's fine with me. When you are reckless, you are bound to cause a negative outcome. Oh, I didn't mean to hit that person while I was drinking and driving...but you did and now you pay for the person's suffering.

I didn't mean to carry that stick up high but you did and somehow he must pay...either through punishment via the NHL (which is too late) or through retribution via the players, the fans, and the media. I don't give a crap if Williams did it with or without intent. IF this ends Koivu's career, the players, the fans, and the media must make Williams life a living hell when he's in town. The players must rough him up any chance they get, the fans have to boo him for the remainder of his carreer, and the media must stick a mic in his face asking him the same question about what he did to Koivu over and over again.

It's all about the outcome when you play reckless...Williams has to pay if Koivu's carreer is over. No, not through cheap shots but there are other ways like the one's I mentioned.

MC Girl · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

Let me ask you something Jedah...When a player high-sticks another, does he get penalized for it regardless if it's intentional or unintentional? We both know the answer is yes. Williams got off free as a bird. The majority of the rules in sports and society are based on the outcome...and that's fine with me. When you are reckless, you are bound to cause a negative outcome. Oh, I didn't mean to hit that person while I was drinking and driving...but you did and now you pay for the person's suffering. I didn't mean to carry that stick up high but you did and somehow he must pay...either through punishment via the NHL (which is too late) or through retribution via the players, the fans, and the media. I don't give a crap if Williams did it with or without intent. IF this ends Koivu's career, the players, the fans, and the media must make Williams life a living hell when he's in town. The players must rough him up any chance they get, the fans have to boo him for the remainder of his carreer, and the media must stick a mic in his face asking him the same question about what he did to Koivu over and over again. It's all about the outcome when you play reckless...Williams has to pay if Koivu's carreer is over. No, not through cheap shots but there are other ways like the one's I mentioned.

Dead on Key Lime.... Couldn't have put it better myself

Jedah · Guru

You're changing the subject. I'm not saying you can't hate him or boo him. I'm saying you shouldn't hate him because you think it was done on purpose. It clearly wasn't. And yes, I understand that when somebody does something, intentional or not, they receive equal punishment.

So if you'd like to go and hate Williams, go ahead. I personally feel the guy regrets what he did, so I'm not going to condemn him for it. I personally will only hate people when they have an intent to injure such as Todd Bertuzzi or Kyle McLaren. There are key differences from what those guys did to what Justin Williams did.

-- Edited by Jedah at 22:54, 2006-05-28

MC Girl · Guru

Does anyone have the Koivu eye gouge clip saved???? I can't find it anywhere.

I'm pretty sure the "stick lifting" didn't even come close to Koivu's stick. Williams came straight up w/ it & nailed him in the eye.... and I'm sure it was "on purpose".... Just like the other highsticks he threw around.....

& to carry on Key's metaphor..... I'd hate a drunk driver too.... even if he didn't do it "on purpose".

Carelessness = reason enough to hate him.

Ending our Captian's career = reason enough for wanting revenge.

Jedah · Guru

I doubt it'll end Koivu's career. The media has a rather large tendency to blow these situations WAY out of proportion, so take that article with a grain of salt, first of all.

That aside and getting back to the main issue, yes, the guy was careless. But who are you to tell me he did it on purpose? Let's use a little common sense here. Players don't play the game with the intent to injure, period. And those select few who do, we know who they are. I find it ludicrous to make such claims without any sufficient evidence frankly, and that is the issue I'm taking to this.

-- Edited by Jedah at 23:15, 2006-05-28

MC Girl · Guru

Jedah wrote:

I doubt it'll end Koivu's career. The media has a rather large tendency to blow these situations WAY out of proportion, so take that article with a grain of salt, first of all. That aside and getting back to the main issue, yes, the guy was careless. But who are you to tell me he did it on purpose? Let's use a little common sense here. Players don't play the game with the intent to injure, period. And those select few who do, we know who they are. I find it ludicrous to make such claims without any sufficient evidence frankly, and that is the issue I'm taking to this.-- Edited by Jedah at 23:15, 2006-05-28

O.k.... then, Who are you to say he didn't???? Were you in his head?

This is an endless debate that is going no where fast. I am merely stating my opinion, which I know you don't agree with. It's cool with me that you don't agree. I can live with it.

Jedah · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

Jedah wrote:
I doubt it'll end Koivu's career. The media has a rather large tendency to blow these situations WAY out of proportion, so take that article with a grain of salt, first of all. That aside and getting back to the main issue, yes, the guy was careless. But who are you to tell me he did it on purpose? Let's use a little common sense here. Players don't play the game with the intent to injure, period. And those select few who do, we know who they are. I find it ludicrous to make such claims without any sufficient evidence frankly, and that is the issue I'm taking to this.-- Edited by Jedah at 23:15, 2006-05-28

O.k.... then, Who are you to say he didn't???? Were you in his head?
This is an endless debate that is going no where fast. I am merely stating my opinion, which I know you don't agree with. It's cool with me that you don't agree. I can live with it.

Innocent until proven guilty, as the old saying goes.

MC Girl · Guru

Jedah wrote:

O.k.... then, Who are you to say he didn't???? Were you in his head? This is an endless debate that is going no where fast. I am merely stating my opinion, which I know you don't agree with. It's cool with me that you don't agree. I can live with it.

Innocent until proven guilty, as the old saying goes.

Yeah, in the year 2006, that is almost non-exsistant. Guilty until proven innocent now-a-days.

Jedah · Guru

Not quite. In a court of law, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the trial would be dismissed if there is no evidence presented by the plaintiff?

MC Girl · Guru

I'm so over this.... You are intent on making your point... I got it.. I'm sure Key got it.... We feel this way, you feel your way.

If you want to get LEGAL... yes I'm sure there would have to be reason/evidence for malice before guilt could be proven..... but guess what... there are lot's of murders & drug dealers that got outta jail free because there was no proof.... doesn't mean they are innocent does it????

Let's not get all OJ Trail over here.

-- Edited by MC Girl at 23:34, 2006-05-28

Jedah · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

I'm so over this.... You are intent on making your point... I got it.. I'm sure Key got it.... We feel this way, you feel your way.
If you want to get LEGAL... yes I'm sure there would have to be reason/evidence for malice before guilt could be proven..... but guess what... there are lot's of murders & drug dealers that got outta jail free because there was no proof.... doesn't mean they are innocent does it????
Let's not get all OJ Trail over here.-- Edited by MC Girl at 23:34, 2006-05-28

Oh, I'm not calling him innocent. I'm simply saying you can't prove he did it on purpose, so you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. And if you feel so strongly that this argument is over, you really shouldn't keep arguing your side, because it's pretty obvious that I'm not going to back down anytime soon, as I feel very strongly about this.

MC Girl · Guru

Jedah wrote:

Oh, I'm not calling him innocent. I'm simply saying you can't prove he did it on purpose, so you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. And if you feel so strongly that this argument is over, you really shouldn't keep arguing your side, because it's pretty obvious that I'm not going to back down anytime soon, as I feel very strongly about this.

#1 You can't prove he didn't do it on purpose so your point is as strong as mine...

#2 That's not what you are simply saying... I'll quote a few things you've said....

cut the guy a little slack, there's no way he was trying to injure anyone, you shouldn't hate him because you think it was done on purpose, if you'd like to go and hate Williams, go ahead, who are you to tell me he did it on purpose? Let's use a little common sense here, Innocent until proven guilty

let's say, I don't want to cut the guy a little slack & like Bobby Brown says....it's my prerogative, I hate him because he seriously injured our Captain & that's a damn good reason to hate him, I'm using common sense.... & I don't like the implication that I'm not, & .... well I've already gone over the rest.

#3 I'll stay in a debate until I see fit. (or until it turns nasty )

-- Edited by MC Girl at 00:06, 2006-05-29

Jedah · Guru

I see you want this to continue, so ok, here goes:

#1 You can't prove he didn't do it on purpose so your point is as strong as mine...
We've been over this... innocent until proven guilty. I stated that quite clearly, so I would say my point gets the upper hand.

let's say, I don't want to cut the guy a little slack & like Bobby Brown says....it's my prerogative, I hate him because he seriously injured our Captain & that's a damn good reason to hate him, I'm using common sense.... & I don't like the implication that I'm not, & .... well I've already go over the rest.
It's your own call to make. I just don't feel it's the right one, or a just one to make. Let's say somebody accidently spills a soda on you. It was an accident, right? So are you going to hate them for it? I know I wouldn't as long as they appologized, like Williams did.

#3 I'll stay in a debate until I see fit. (or until it turns nasty )
Suit yourself.

-- Edited by Jedah at 00:17, 2006-05-29

MC Girl · Guru

Jedah wrote:

I see you want this to continue, so ok, here goes: #1 You can't prove he didn't do it on purpose so your point is as strong as mine... We've been over this... innocent until proven guilty. I stated that quite clearly, so I would say my point gets the upper hand. let's say, I don't want to cut the guy a little slack & like Bobby Brown says....it's my prerogative, I hate him because he seriously injured our Captain & that's a damn good reason to hate him, I'm using common sense.... & I don't like the implication that I'm not, & .... well I've already go over the rest. It's your own call to make. I just don't feel it's the right one, or a just one to make. Let's say somebody accidently spills a soda on you. It was an accident, right? So are you going to hate them for it? I know I wouldn't as long as they appologized, like Williams did. #3 I'll stay in a debate until I see fit. (or until it turns nasty ) Good to know.

I hope you aren't comparing the possibly irreversible eye damage on our Captain to the spilling of soda.

Let's say someone accidentally backs over your kid in a parking lot, possibly injuring them for life all because the driver was carelessly/recklessly driving their car..... Are you going to hate that person??? or say... "Oh it's ok... I know it was only an accident". Puuullleeeaaassseee!

I'm done now... It's bed time... Good Night Sleep tight......

-- Edited by MC Girl at 00:28, 2006-05-29

Jedah · Guru

You can't compare it to backing over a kid, and I'll tell you why. When you drive, it's your duty to be watching the road and you are held responsible for that sort of thing. You should always be looking in all of your mirrors and blind spots, so there is no excuse. But even so, if the person genuinely felt bad about it and didn't mean it, I'd be really upset about it, and probably sue based on what I stated above, but you just don't hold a grudge on someone for an accident. That is why it's called an ACCIDENT and not an ON PURPOSE.

Personally, I found my example to be much more effective. Knocking over a soda is a complete accident: it happens when you simply don't see the soda and very quickly hit it. When you back over a kid, you're supposed to be looking, and so you would be held responsible. I know that when I got my drivers license, I was tested on my ability to use my mirrors and check my blindspot. Williams was not tested on his ability to lift a stick effectively, nor should he need to be. Maybe he should learn to do it better, but these things happen.

That is why somebody like Steve Moore can sue Todd Bertuzzi for an intent to injure, yet Koivu won't be suing Williams for a simple mistake. A costly one, sure, but a mistake nonetheless.

-- Edited by Jedah at 00:42, 2006-05-29

MC Girl · Guru

Jedah wrote:

You can't compare it to backing over a kid, and I'll tell you why. When you drive, it's your duty to be watching the road and you are held responsible for that sort of thing. You should always be looking in all of your mirrors and blind spots, so there is no excuse. But even so, if the person genuinely felt bad about it and didn't mean it, I'd be really upset about it, but you just don't hold somebody responsible for an accident. That is why it's called an ACCIDENT and not an ON PURPOSE. Personally, I found my example to be much more effective. Knocking over a soda is a complete accident: it happens when you simply don't see the soda and very quickly hit it. When you back over a kid, you're supposed to be looking, and so you would be held responsible. I know that when I got my drivers license, I was tested on my ability to use my mirrors and check my blindspot. Williams was not tested on his ability to lift a stick effectively, nor should he need to be. Maybe he should learn to do it better, but these things happen. That is why somebody like Steve Moore can sue Todd Bertuzzi for an intent to injure, yet Koivu won't be suing Williams for a simple mistake. A costly one, sure, but a mistake nonetheless.

I knew you'd want the last word.... this will be my last post on this topic, so feel free to "last word" me after this post.....

Replies to what's highlighted.....

~ When you play hockey you are responsible for what happens with your stick!!!! As it states in the RULES.

~ I work for a driving school.... I know the rules of the road.... the rules in hockey clearly state that a "highstick" is illegal.... that's why it is supposed to be a penalty.

~ It's still called an accident when someone drinks & crashes.... but that's not an accident is it??? A car is a weapon just like his stick is.

~ Kids are short & can't always be seen behind cars (which is why the have rear video & alarm in some cars to notify you something is there)

~ There was a penalty called on Bertuzzi.... allowing "proof of intent" for court...... not a damn thing happened to Williams, taking away most of Koivu's ability to. Not that he would... he has too much class.

Hell!!!!! Even if it was an accident, his carelessness is appalling, & to me, unforgivable.

Are you sure you aren't Williams? Lord..... of all thing to rant about. Priorities man..... stick with the team you are rooting for.

Jedah · Guru

Well, since you want me to reply to this, far be it from me to deny you.

~ When you play hockey you are responsible for what happens with your stick!!!! As it states in the RULES.
And that is why Williams apologized. He didn't mean it, and he realized he was wrong.

~ I work for a driving school.... I know the rules of the road.... the rules in hockey clearly state that a "highstick" is illegal.... that's why it is supposed to be a penalty.
Absolutely it should have been a penalty. That goes back to what Key Lime wrote, where regardless of intent or not, actions such as this one should be punished. So I have no arguments with that whatsoever. In fact, I was really upset with the officials all night because of poor reffing.

~ It's still called an accident when someone drinks & crashes.... but that's not an accident is it??? A car is a weapon just like his stick is.
It's not an accident? So they tried to crash their car? They should have known better than to drink and drive, just like Williams might have known better than to try to lift a stick in that type of situation, but it definitely does not happen on purpose.

~ Kids are short & can't always be seen behind cars (which is why the have rear video & alarm in some cars to notify you something is there)
When I drive, I know to look for small children. I would trust that anyone else driving would do the same.

~ There was a penalty called on Bertuzzi.... allowing "proof of intent" for court...... not a damn thing happened to Williams, taking away most of Koivu's ability to. Not that he would... he has too much class
With Bertuzzi you could see clearly there was intent. I already stated Williams should have been penalized for his actions, but I haven't heard anything that shows intent, other than from you and Key Lime

Hell!!!!! Even if it was an accident, his carelessness is appalling, & to me, unforgivable.
To each his own. I guess I'm just more forgiving than you are.

Are you sure you aren't Williams? Lord..... of all thing to rant about. Priorities man..... stick with the team you are rooting for.
I'm a Habs fan, first and foremost, so don't get me wrong here. I didn't particularly want to even comment on the article, but I decided to when you claimed you felt it was done on purpose. I don't mean to seem like a bad guy or something, and I don't have any hard feelings towards you over this whole thing. I just wanted to reply because I didn't agree with what you said at all, and to me, that is what makes this message board so great.

brooklynhabfan · Guru

What about Jayson Williams?

Now there's an accident!

Johab · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

Jedah wrote: O.k.... then, Who are you to say he didn't???? Were you in his head? This is an endless debate that is going no where fast. I am merely stating my opinion, which I know you don't agree with. It's cool with me that you don't agree. I can live with it. Innocent until proven guilty, as the old saying goes. Yeah, in the year 2006, that is almost non-exsistant. Guilty until proven innocent now-a-days.

i believe its Guilty until the cheque is cashed now....

MC Girl · Guru

Johab wrote:

i believe its Guilty until the cheque is cashed now....

LOL... or guilty until the test comes back negative

plouf · Guru

Jedah wrote:

You're changing the subject. I'm not saying you can't hate him or boo him. I'm saying you shouldn't hate him because you think it was done on purpose. It clearly wasn't. And yes, I understand that when somebody does something, intentional or not, they receive equal punishment. So if you'd like to go and hate Williams, go ahead. I personally feel the guy regrets what he did, so I'm not going to condemn him for it. I personally will only hate people when they have an intent to injure such as Todd Bertuzzi or Kyle McLaren. There are key differences from what those guys did to what Justin Williams did.-- Edited by Jedah at 22:54, 2006-05-28

Problem is, Jedah, that Williams is still carrying his stick high if you watch Carolina play. He hasn't learned a damned thing.