Overall happy/unhappy

Muller93 · Guru

Overall happy/unhappy

MC Girl · Guru

Alexei Kovalev?????

Playoffs ~ Leader

GP ~ 6

G ~ 4

A ~ 3

PTS ~ 7

Reg. Season ~ Leader

GP ~ 69

G ~ 23

A ~ 42

PTS ~ 65

Let’s see here….. Alexei’s

1st in points…..

Tied for 2nd for Goals…..

2nd in Assists….

2nd for shots on goal….

& he only played 69 games this season….

He's one of the ones making you unhappy????

Boy o' boy..... not sure why people are so Anti-Alexei here. He's one of 2 saving graces, but whatever...

-- Edited by MC Girl at 19:29, 2006-05-04

superhab · Guru

All this praise for Alexei, i don't understand. Heres what i do understand, Alexei is the most offensively talented player on the Habs, and with 69 games he has 65 points which is good BUT not for a guy making 4.5 million and who floats from time to time. He doesn't give it his all, and should be up in the 70 points even if he only played 69 games.

Alexi played well in the first two games in the playoffs but after that he was invisable. That whole rumor of him being hurt was garbage and fabricated. The argument that is linemates are not up to his caliber again is a incorrect statement. He played the same with Ribs as he did with Saks. And Kovy's game is not about being set up it is about making room for himself and dishing it off for a tap in or shooting it in.

rwp2le · Guru

superhab wrote:

All this praise for Alexei, i don't understand. Heres what i do understand, Alexei is the most offensively talented player on the Habs, and with 69 games he has 65 points which is good BUT not for a guy making 4.5 million and who floats from time to time. He doesn't give it his all, and should be up in the 70 points even if he only played 69 games. Alexi played well in the first two games in the playoffs but after that he was invisable. That whole rumor of him being hurt was garbage and fabricated. The argument that is linemates are not up to his caliber again is a incorrect statement. He played the same with Ribs as he did with Saks. And Kovy's game is not about being set up it is about making room for himself and dishing it off for a tap in or shooting it in.

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

Nil d · Guru

superhab wrote:

The argument that is linemates are not up to his caliber again is a incorrect statement. He played the same with Ribs as he did with Saks. And Kovy's game is not about being set up it is about making room for himself and dishing it off for a tap in or shooting it in.

They were saying that on 110% the other day, and comparing that situation (finding an appropriate centreman for him) to the Guy Lafleur days. Guy was a right-winger, but he was all over the ice! Certainly not a textbook player. He didn't take the faceoffs, but he played more like a centreman than a winger - and spent as much time on the left wing as the right. Somehow, he meshed well with Lemaire and Shutt (a 100% Hall of Fame line!), but it was pretty well like this: Shutt whacked in the rebounds and tap-ins on great passes, and Lemaire, who was very gifted offensively, also looked after the defensive chores. Of course, that wasn't that hard because Lafleur had the puck the whole time he was on the ice. (Ah, the memories...............)

On a lesser scale, it's sort of like that with Ribeiro and Kovalev. A typical Ribeiro assist goes like this: Ribeiro makes a two-foot pass to Kovalev in the neutral zone, Kovelev skates through the entire team twice, circles the offensive zone a few times, zigs, zags, creates a seam, and 30 seconds later zips one past the goalie. They both get a point on the play!

MC Girl · Guru

superhab wrote:

All this praise for Alexei, i don't understand. Heres what i do understand, Alexei is the most offensively talented player on the Habs, and with 69 games he has 65 points which is good BUT not for a guy making 4.5 million and who floats from time to time. He doesn't give it his all, and should be up in the 70 points even if he only played 69 games. Alexi played well in the first two games in the playoffs but after that he was invisable. That whole rumor of him being hurt was garbage and fabricated. The argument that is linemates are not up to his caliber again is a incorrect statement. He played the same with Ribs as he did with Saks. And Kovy's game is not about being set up it is about making room for himself and dishing it off for a tap in or shooting it in.

Yeah... well you need to get your FACTS straight.

As for you saying Kovy isn't injured... please post the article/interview for this in your next reply 'cause I can't find it anywhere... and I have looked... believe me.

You are talking in a circle a bit. Let me see what you are sayin'.....

Koivu was on your HAPPY list..... He wasn't doing much not to long ago.... REMEMBER!!! Getting his eye hurt doesn't make his stats improve. He was "floating" for quite a while this year too. Should we get rid of him because of that???? No... because we all know he can do more right? Koivu just got a raise didn't he???? He's makin' 4.75mil now (if memory serves me) for what???? He hasn't improved ... at most, he has stayed the same.... are they paying him for potential???? 'cause Kovy's got a buttload of that.

Kovy.... look at the stats.... nothing but improvement for the Habs. Leader in this, that & the other. Played 69 games & still came out on top.... Had surgery in November & was out for a few months (how we forget how much he was missed at that time) & still came back to lead.

Look at every action of every player you mention before debating their worth (or lack there of) If you are "outing" a player because of his actions.... you better make sure those actions aren't being repeated by players you feel should stay "in" or it's just nonsense.

-- Edited by MC Girl at 21:23, 2006-05-04

Nil d · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

As for you saying Kovy isn't injured... please post the article/interview for this in your next reply 'cause I can't find it anywhere... and I have looked... believe me.

Not to take sides in this debate, but I saw it on TV that both Kovalev and Gainey stated separately and uncategorically that he was not hurt. Having said that, why Gainey/Carbo would reduce his playing time in the middle of the last game is beyond me.

MC Girl · Guru

Nil d wrote:

MC Girl wrote: As for you saying Kovy isn't injured... please post the article/interview for this in your next reply 'cause I can't find it anywhere... and I have looked... believe me.

Not to take sides in this debate, but I saw it on TV that both Kovalev and Gainey stated separately and uncategorically that he was not hurt. Having said that, why Gainey/Carbo would reduce his playing time in the middle of the last game is beyond me.

If you can post it... that'd be great. Gainey (apparently) has had issues with Kovy for a while now.... however, he (along with Huet) got us to (& kept us in) the playoffs..... but whatever.

Not sure who or what to trust on here. What about all these claims by "trusted" people on this site about knee imaging being done @ the hospital?... him walkin' on crutches?... the interview that I saw with my own 2 eyes where he said yes he was hurting a bit? Can't trust anyone's word on here without proof.... been told a lot of lies lately.

Anywho... my point was... you don't knock your top guy (Kovalev)... it's just wrong! He had a big part in getting us to the playoffs. Others on the "happy list" did not.

No merit, no worries

-- Edited by MC Girl at 22:41, 2006-05-04

superhab · Guru

rwp2le wrote:

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

Yes, yes it is

And i can't post the article because as Nil D already said it was in TV interviews.

-- Edited by superhab at 21:35, 2006-05-04

Muller93 · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

If you can post it... that'd be great. Gainey (apparently) has had issues with Kovy for a while now.... however, he (along with Huet) got us to (& kept us in) the playoffs..... but whatever. Not sure who or what to trust on here. What about all these claims by "trusted" people on this site about knee imaging being done @ the hospital?... him walkin' on crutches?... the interview that I saw with my own 2 eyes where he said yes he was hurting a bit? Can't trust anyone's word on here without proof.... been told a lot of lies lately. Anywho... my point was... you don't knock your top guy (Kovalev)... it's just wrong! He had a big part in getting us to the playoffs. Others on the "happy list" did not. Not merit, no worries

Huh Mc Girl? Koivu and Kovalev are different types of players...completely.

Secondly...someone posted on here "should the habs trade Kovalev"?...I said NO

Kovalev is a unique talent. I say see how he does with a more "gifted" centerman. But my point was...20 measly goals from your top offensive "go to" guy? No matter who you blame...that makes me unhappy.

Let me ask you this...Everyone is saying Gainey will use the money saved from the Theo contract dump and sign a big time guy...would you be happy if they sign...ohh let's say Lecavlier to a 4 year 5.5 mil/season contract...and he got 20 goals??...the same as Bulis???...I think not.

Whereas Koivu got you similar point production/Defensive skills/leadership/grit etc. Come on Mc Girl..surely you know point production is only a small component of a players true value...in the case of Kovalev...you see...that is his only yardstick...

superhab · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

. Yeah... well you need to get your FACTS straight. As for you saying Kovy isn't injured... please post the article/interview for this in your next reply 'cause I can't find it anywhere... and I have looked... believe me. You are talking in a circle a bit. Let me see what you are sayin'..... Koivu was on your HAPPY list..... He wasn't doing much not to long ago.... REMEMBER!!! Getting his eye hurt doesn't make his stats improve. He was "floating" for quite a while this year too. Should we get rid of him because of that???? No... because we all know he can do more right? Koivu just got a raise didn't he???? He's makin' 4.75mil now (if memory serves me) for what???? He hasn't improved ... at most, he has stayed the same.... are they paying him for potential???? 'cause Kovy's got a buttload of that. Kovy.... look at the stats.... nothing but improvement for the Habs. Leader in this, that & the other. Played 69 games & still came out on top.... Had surgery in November & was out for a few months (how we forget how much he was missed at that time) & still came back to lead. Look at every action of every player you mention before debating their worth (or lack there of) If you are "outing" a player because of his actions.... you better make sure those actions aren't being repeated by players you feel should stay "in" or it's just nonsense.-- Edited by MC Girl at 21:23, 2006-05-04

He as not floating he just wasn't producing there is a diffrence. Not producing is when a player is snakebitten or somehow screwing up from lack of confidence or other reasons. While floating is skating at half speed to get back in the defensive end.

rwp2le · Guru

His only yard stick? OK, guess we wath different games.

Saku11 · Senior Member

I dont mean to start anything but, i think people here are scared to get scolded and say that Koivu had a bad year!!!! Its really contradictive when someone says KOivu had a great year and Kovalev had a bad year. thats Bulls$#%!!! Not koivu, not kovalev, neither player had a great year period. They had average years.

MC Girl · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

Huh Mc Girl? Koivu and Kovalev are different types of players...completely. Secondly...someone posted on here "should the habs trade Kovalev"?...I said NO Kovalev is a unique talent. I say see how he does with a more "gifted" centerman. But my point was...20 measly goals from your top offensive "go to" guy? No matter who you blame...that makes me unhappy. Let me ask you this...Everyone is saying Gainey will use the money saved from the Theo contract dump and sign a big time guy...would you be happy if they sign...ohh let's say Lecavlier to a 4 year 5.5 mil/season contract...and he got 20 goals??...the same as Bulis???...I think not. Whereas Koivu got you similar point production/Defensive skills/leadership/grit etc. Come on Mc Girl..surely you know point production is only a small component of a players true value...in the case of Kovalev...you see...that is his only yardstick...

First off... it wasn't 20 measly goals.... it's 23 reg season goals. & if you look at total points... he's right up there. (& he makes less than Koivu now)

His presence was praised the first two/three games of the playoffs... he was the one scoring remember??? & Look at his linemates.... can't score with a bunch of fumbling fools on your line.... no one person can single handedly hold a team together. He can only play as well as the others around him... if they ain't tryin'.... his job is that much harder. He's not GOD.... can't create miracles by himself. He is only one person. Maybe if coaches treated him according to his value... he might have played even harder than he did.... although IMHO, the best on the team is pretty damn good!

Saku11 · Senior Member

MC Girl wrote:

Muller93 wrote: Huh Mc Girl? Koivu and Kovalev are different types of players...completely. Secondly...someone posted on here "should the habs trade Kovalev"?...I said NO Kovalev is a unique talent. I say see how he does with a more "gifted" centerman. But my point was...20 measly goals from your top offensive "go to" guy? No matter who you blame...that makes me unhappy. Let me ask you this...Everyone is saying Gainey will use the money saved from the Theo contract dump and sign a big time guy...would you be happy if they sign...ohh let's say Lecavlier to a 4 year 5.5 mil/season contract...and he got 20 goals??...the same as Bulis???...I think not. Whereas Koivu got you similar point production/Defensive skills/leadership/grit etc. Come on Mc Girl..surely you know point production is only a small component of a players true value...in the case of Kovalev...you see...that is his only yardstick...

Sorry muller your point is really mute at this topic. You cant sit here and say Koivu was more valuable than Kovalev. It just does not add up. you lost this argument!!!

MC Girl · Guru

Saku11 wrote:

I dont mean to start anything but, i think people here are scared to get scolded and say that Koivu had a bad year!!!! Its really contradictive when someone says KOivu had a great year and Kovalev had a bad year. thats Bulls$#%!!! Not koivu, not kovalev, neither player had a great year period. They had average years.

My point is how is Kovalev on the "Unhappy" list & Koivu isn't????

Saku11 · Senior Member

MC Girl wrote:

Saku11 wrote: I dont mean to start anything but, i think people here are scared to get scolded and say that Koivu had a bad year!!!! Its really contradictive when someone says KOivu had a great year and Kovalev had a bad year. thats Bulls$#%!!! Not koivu, not kovalev, neither player had a great year period. They had average years. My point is how is Kovalev on the "Unhappy" list & Koivu isn't????

thats what i want to know too!!!

-- Edited by Saku11 at 21:56, 2006-05-04

redlightmike · Member

Once again it disappoints me that some players are freely criticized (and i feel wrongfully) when others are given complete immunity.

I loved Kovalev's play this year. i think he's a stellar player who works magic, and is an absolute pleasure to watch whenever he touches that puck. he had some great goals, a good point total, and a killer elbow to tucker's stupid face....... while for the most part playing on a line with a HACK like Ribeiro. put him with a couple real hockey players and see what happens. I dont understand why many people nitpick the crap out of Kovi and overlook his positives, whereas people like Huet get 100% immunity despite letting in numerous weak goals throughout the year.

Muller93 · Guru

I think my point has been missed.

I have been a fan of Kovalev all season. He did lead the habs in points. And I did mention that he had yahoo's for linemates.

All I was saying was...if someone told me at the beginning of the year that Kovalev would end the season with 23 goals...i would not have been happy.

If someone told me Koivu would end the seson with the point production he did...I would have figured that is about right given his other skills.

Kovalev does not play the PK...Koivu does. Kovalev is a hired gun...is 23 goals worth the price???

Saku11 · Senior Member

Muller93 wrote:

I think my point has been missed. I have been a fan of Kovalev all season. He did lead the habs in points. And I did mention that he had yahoo's for linemates. All I was saying was...if someone told me at the beginning of the year that Kovalev would end the season with 23 goals...i would not have been happy. If someone told me Koivu would end the seson with the point production he did...I would have figured that is about right given his other skills. Kovalev does not play the PK...Koivu does. Kovalev is a hired gun...is 23 goals worth the price???

Muller, would you pay 4.75 million to a guy who averages 60 points a year??? and has only reached 20 or more goals only twice in a 10 year span. If you are talking about the "Player", not what he brings as far as experience or leadership, than Koivu deserves a 2 mil $ contract. Kovalev played much less games and with much worse linemates than Koivu. He carried pretty much did it himself!!!

MC Girl · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

I think my point has been missed. I have been a fan of Kovalev all season. He did lead the habs in points. And I did mention that he had yahoo's for linemates. All I was saying was...if someone told me at the beginning of the year that Kovalev would end the season with 23 goals...i would not have been happy. If someone told me Koivu would end the seson with the point production he did...I would have figured that is about right given his other skills. Kovalev does not play the PK...Koivu does. Kovalev is a hired gun...is 23 goals worth the price???

Yep he is, he also helps set up others goals.... that counts for something too last I checked. Also, Judge him after a full season on the ice, not a season marred with injury's, surgery's, coach firing's, goalie releases, etc. That's a lot for any team to go through.

& his price should be o.k. Koivu got a raise recently & makes more than Kovy & they played at approx. the same level this season. As a matter of fact Koivu was in a slump when he was signed to this new deal. Both brought about the same stats & gusto this season, why is one rewarded & the other slammed?

Cleghorn · Veteran Member

If you live in Toronto you'd know lack of the right linemates for Sundin has been the mantra that exonerates him year after year after year.....

Power · Veteran Member

Well let´s see I read somewhere that Brad Richards(sp) next contract will be approx 7-8 mil/year and his points was on reg season 23+68=91. Kovy is what 4.5 mil/year and 23+42=65 and Saks was what under 4mil/year 17+45=62. So what comes to money I can live with those paychecks. Kovy offensive stats was disapointment to me, especial amount of goals I personally ecpected him to be our best goalscorer between 30-40 goals and I am satisfied at kovys +/- rating is only –1. Saks +/- rating was disapointment to me because I didn´t expected him to be our best point producer but I expected him to top of that category hell even Perez was higher! And I am satisfied with Saks point producing in overall, when Someone like Kovy makes 65 points so Saks 62 is not that bad. So both players were equally good/bad or at least that is my opinion.

Muller93 · Guru

Saku11 wrote:

Muller, would you pay 4.75 million to a guy who averages 60 points a year??? and has only reached 20 or more goals only twice in a 10 year span.

YEP...me and about 25 other teams. Koivu is a rare breed in this league. Pang said on TSN that Koivu is revered by his NHL pers. They view him as one of the leagues best players and leaders.

Kovalev on the other hand is paid to get points. PERIOD. Nothing else. Nothing else...

Do I think Kovalev had a pretty good year considering his linemates? Yes I do. But I am not one for excuses...Kovalev has not done much in 5 years now( and if you think 69 points is doing something...well OK).

Kovalev can and will do better I think next year. He needs to get 35 goals/90 points to be worth all his risky plays and zero defensive upside.

So no...I was not happy with 23goals/69points. Koivu on the other hand had his standard year...A multi-purpose player smack dab in the middle of the payscale...not elite demands( 7-8mil year).

MC Girl · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

YEP...me and about 25 other teams. Koivu is a rare breed in this league. Pang said on TSN that Koivu is revered by his NHL pers. They view him as one of the leagues best players and leaders. Kovalev on the other hand is paid to get points. PERIOD. Nothing else. Nothing else... Do I think Kovalev had a pretty good year considering his linemates? Yes I do. But I am not one for excuses...Kovalev has not done much in 5 years now( and if you think 69 points is doing something...well OK). Kovalev can and will do better I think next year. He needs to get 35 goals/90 points to be worth all his risky plays and zero defensive upside. So no...I was not happy with 23goals/69points. Koivu on the other hand had his standard year...A multi-purpose player smack dab in the middle of the payscale...not elite demands( 7-8mil year).

Funny, standard for Koivu = unacceptable for Kovalev.....

Stop comparing the two & fawning over Koivu....

Koivu had the same amount of crappy/heartless games as Kovy this year.... he did nothing all that special.... that is until he took a stick in the eye. Remember the millions of posts about Koivu's Lack of Heart????

Take off the blinders man, there is so much you're missing.

Muller93 · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

Take off the blinders man, there is so much you're missing.

Right back at ya. You keep wanting to compare the two as if they bring the same things to the table...trust me, the expectations for Kovalev are different then Koivu.

Anyhow...You keep missing my point. It's like arguing witha two year old. I like Kovalev...I want him back next year...I think he will have better numbers next year...and he should have better numbers given that is what he is paid to do.

Koivu will not have better numbers next year...He will get 20 goals and 60-70 points...and play the PK...and take key face-offs...and play great down low in his own end....and be on the ice the final minute of play...down 1 goal or up one goal...Kovalev will not be on the ice up one goal...get my point???

If I had to chose between a guy that gets 23 goals/69 points...and does nothing well defensively...versus a guy who gets me 17 goals and 60 ponts..and also plays a solid defensive game...it's a no brainer. But the guy's name is Kovalev...he has such potent skills...as a GM...he draws you in...could this be the year he gets 40goals????

I hope next year it is...then I will be happy.

MC Girl · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

...trust me, the expectations for Kovalev are different then Koivu. Anyhow...You keep missing my point. It's like arguing witha two year old....

You are missing everyone else's point too, not just mine & not only in this post, in all your debates re: Koivu. You could care less about how your boy plays as long as others are picking up his slack & if they don't...... they make your "unhappy" list. Koivu is immune to "surpassing expectations" & Kovy isn't....I get it.

& compare me to a two year old again & I'll drop the gloves with you full fledged!!!! Koivu makes more than Kovy..... GET IT. Enough already. Stop baggin' on a player when he has the same qualities as your precious Koivu & makes less money!

Again, even Gainey said he was impressed by Kovy.... & Mr Gainey is all that matters in the end.

-- Edited by MC Girl at 17:59, 2006-05-05

superhab · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

Muller93 wrote: ...trust me, the expectations for Kovalev are different then Koivu. Anyhow...You keep missing my point. It's like arguing witha two year old.... You are missing everyone else's point too, not just mine & not only in this post, in all your debates re: Koivu. You could care less about how your boy plays as long as others are picking up his slack & if they don't...... they make your "unhappy" list. Koivu is immune to "surpassing expectations" & Kovy isn't....I get it. & compare me to a two year old again & I'll drop the gloves with you full fledged!!!! Koivu makes more than Kovy..... GET IT. Enough already. Stop baggin' on a player when he has the same qualities as your precious Koivu & makes less money! Again, even Gainey said he was impressed by Kovy.... & Mr Gainey is all that matters in the end. -- Edited by MC Girl at 17:59, 2006-05-05

Not defending Saku's season, which wasn't all that great but to even utter Kovy's name in the same as Saku's makes me die a little inside (Can't wait for the little shot about how that would be nice or something or other) And another thing Saku makes way too much, as does Kovy but as does everyone in the league. I don't base my oppinions on salary but on role.

MC Girl · Guru

superhab wrote:

Not defending Saku's season, which wasn't all that great but to even utter Kovy's name in the same as Saku's makes me die a little inside (Can't wait for the little shot about how that would be nice or something or other) And another thing Saku makes way too much, as does Kovy but as does everyone in the league. I don't base my oppinions on salary but on role.

Quoting you.....

"Unhappy: Ribeiro(he is gone), Bulis(he is gone...inconsistent), Kovalev( 20goals for 4.5mil and no defensive abilities hmmm), Perez( sorry..anyone say Petrov), Komi( too slow this year), Zednik(did he get fat and lazy???), Markov( yep, his playoff performance ruined his season for me), Souray( got burned WAAAAY too many times), Streit( yuk), Bonk, Sundstrom( he is gone)."

Sounds to me like you are basing a lot of it on their salary.

Muller93 · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

superhab wrote: Not defending Saku's season, which wasn't all that great but to even utter Kovy's name in the same as Saku's makes me die a little inside (Can't wait for the little shot about how that would be nice or something or other) And another thing Saku makes way too much, as does Kovy but as does everyone in the league. I don't base my oppinions on salary but on role. Quoting you..... "Unhappy: Ribeiro(he is gone), Bulis(he is gone...inconsistent), Kovalev( 20goals for 4.5mil and no defensive abilities hmmm), Perez( sorry..anyone say Petrov), Komi( too slow this year), Zednik(did he get fat and lazy???), Markov( yep, his playoff performance ruined his season for me), Souray( got burned WAAAAY too many times), Streit( yuk), Bonk, Sundstrom( he is gone)." Sounds to me like you are basing a lot of it on their salary.

Well...Uhmmm...I have noticed you have mixed Muller93 and superhab up a few times...either your drunk...or operating at a two year old level...

basically your feathers are ruffled because I put Koivu on the happy list( out of his 10 years in the league...this past season was on par per his norm).

I just think kovalev could do more that's all...don't you? wheras, Koivu was exactly as expected...

In any case, we can agree to disagree...armchair GM's...but I bet my team would make your team look silly