We can't win without Koivu

Figaro · Guru

We can't win without Koivu

macneil · Guru

i know this is going to mean anything to certain posters on this board , but i hope they now realize what koivu means to this team , i know they didnt wish or want him hurt , but now that he is , his true worth is being shown , we're winless without him . on a side note i wasnt into the game tonight , the terrible reffing in the series have got me down , if montreal can somehow beat the refacanes ill be ready for the next series .

davidb · Guru

I like that REFACANES. We will be accused of whining, but just look at the last 3 games after we went up 2 zip. We cannot buy a good call. Tonight it went slightly that way, but not enough. I would hope Koivu would sit near the bench Tuesday to get the team up if thats possible

macneil · Guru

dont worry david if the habs had of scored on the pp they would have stopped calling the pens. on carolina . they were just trying to look like they were helping montreal. when the game is on the line they will screw us over again .

-- Edited by macneil at 22:34, 2006-04-30

The Kahuna · Guru

I really thought the team would rally around their Captains brutal injury, but I have to agree, they're really badly missing him! The good news is, CBC reported Sak's is at home and has some vision out of the injured eye! Let's dream, let's all visualize Saku in game 6 wearing a full face!!! I know it's not realistic, but could you imagine the boost it would give the team!!!

davidb · Guru

He could not play because of the eye pressure or bumping around, but what about him sitting in the front row

The Kahuna · Guru

Hey David B, don'r piss on my parade, I was just dreaming out loud

Key Lime · Guru

You know what Figaro...the "realists" are going to say that it's due to the fact that Ward is in nets now and the Canes stepped it up a notch in the last 3 games or the refs are biased. Ya sure, could be BUT the truth of the matter is that our "real leader" (and I hope that all posters will accept the truth) is at home watching the game through one eye...

Yes, we can bring Begin back...our so-called leader but the player who keeps it all together and inspires everyone on this team is a little, brittle, smurf (as some of you call him) called Koivu. How about some acknowledgment that he is a very important part of this team....or maybe it's coincidence that the Habs haven't played with same intensity and desperation they did in the first 2 games and 6 minutes of this series. Yes, its Cam Ward, it's Brind'amour, it's the officiating. Whatever! Just look at these guys play.

They are a shadow of what the were in the first 2 games. All I'm talking about is the intensity, confidence , and desperation is not the same. That, you can't deny!

The Kahuna · Guru

It's hard to pin that totally on the loss of Saku. Although losing Saks is part of it, Ward is also a big part of it, other players inability to step it up is also big. To be honest, it's possible they'd still be down 3-2 with Saks, but I'd sure rather have him in the lineup than out!

plouf · Guru

The Kahuna wrote:

It's hard to pin that totally on the loss of Saku. Although losing Saks is part of it, Ward is also a big part of it, other players inability to step it up is also big. To be honest, it's possible they'd still be down 3-2 with Saks, but I'd sure rather have him in the lineup than out!

This is a waste of time....what if's and all....but I still think we would probably have won at least one of those three if it wasn't for that injury. Anyway, let's hope that that's all we (and Saku) lose. At this point prognosis is good for our captain. Let's hope...

ScottishHAB · Veteran Member

The sad thing is that the rest of the team haven't lifted their game without Koivu.The early part of both games 4 & 5 sounded as if we just let the Canes play.There seems to have been a lack of heart never mind a lack of leadership.
Can that be turned around before Tuesday night?

barry33 · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

You know what Figaro...the "realists" are going to say that it's due to the fact that Ward is in nets now and the Canes stepped it up a notch in the last 3 games or the refs are biased. Ya sure, could be BUT the truth of the matter is that our "real leader" (and I hope that all posters will accept the truth) is at home watching the game through one eye... Yes, we can bring Begin back...our so-called leader but the player who keeps it all together and inspires everyone on this team is a little, brittle, smurf (as some of you call him) called Koivu. How about some acknowledgment that he is a very important part of this team....or maybe it's coincidence that the Habs haven't played with same intensity and desperation they did in the first 2 games and 6 minutes of this series. Yes, its Cam Ward, it's Brind'amour, it's the officiating. Whatever! Just look at these guys play. They are a shadow of what the were in the first 2 games. All I'm talking about is the intensity, confidence , and desperation is not the same. That, you can't deny!

WOW! I am impressed that it took this long for the "I told you so" posts to begin. I knew that when Saks went down that this was a no win situation on the board. Had we won, the And-O's would say "I told you that we do not need him", we lose and it is "I told you that we cannot win without him". Now, let me be the voice of reason here. Is Koivu a huge loss? Duhhhh...of course he is. He is the captain, a leader, and happens to play at a position the habs are terribly thin at..Centre. Is he the only reason we have lost 3 games in a row? Uhmmm..how do I put this...NO. The problems that plagued this team during the CJ era are still plaguing this team. Inconsistent effort, no depth at centre, poor penalty killing, lack of team cohesiveness.

Our first line centre goes down..and who do we have to replace him with? Ohhhh.,..it is future Rocket Richard trophy winner Radek Bonk!!! That should do it!! Or maybe we could use Mike 'I cannot believe I am still getting paid to play hockey' Ribiero. This is Bob Gainey's team. He failed to address the lack of depth at this position this year and here we are. Looking for a scapegoat? Look behind the bench.

Carolina is a better team. Period. Top to bottom. The only position that we really match up favorably with is in goal. And I would say that our defence would be about even. But it is the forward position that we just are not in the same league, top to bottom. And the result is that, once Carolina got decent goaltending we were outclassed. Now would having Saks in the lineup put us over the hump? Maybe. But that is just speculation akin to wondering whether guessing the right 6 numbers Saturday night would win you 30 million.

-- Edited by barry33 at 07:34, 2006-05-01

Key Lime · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Key Lime wrote: You know what Figaro...the "realists" are going to say that it's due to the fact that Ward is in nets now and the Canes stepped it up a notch in the last 3 games or the refs are biased. Ya sure, could be BUT the truth of the matter is that our "real leader" (and I hope that all posters will accept the truth) is at home watching the game through one eye... Yes, we can bring Begin back...our so-called leader but the player who keeps it all together and inspires everyone on this team is a little, brittle, smurf (as some of you call him) called Koivu. How about some acknowledgment that he is a very important part of this team....or maybe it's coincidence that the Habs haven't played with same intensity and desperation they did in the first 2 games and 6 minutes of this series. Yes, its Cam Ward, it's Brind'amour, it's the officiating. Whatever! Just look at these guys play. They are a shadow of what the were in the first 2 games. All I'm talking about is the intensity, confidence , and desperation is not the same. That, you can't deny! WOW! I am impressed that it took this long for the "I told you so" posts to begin. I knew that when Saks went down that this was a no win situation on the board. Had we won, the And-O's would say "I told you that we do not need him", we lose and it is "I told you that we cannot win without him". Now, let me be the voice of reason here. Is Koivu a huge loss? Duhhhh...of course he is. He is the captain, a leader, and happens to play at a position the habs are terribly thin at..Centre. Is he the only reason we have lost 3 games in a row? Uhmmm..how do I put this...NO. The problems that plagued this team during the CJ era are still plaguing this team. Inconsistent effort, no depth at centre, poor penalty killing, lack of team cohesiveness. Our first line centre goes down..and who do we have to replace him with? Ohhhh.,..it is future Rocket Richard trophy winner Radek Bonk!!! That should do it!! Or maybe we could use Mike 'I cannot believe I am still getting paid to play hockey' Ribiero. This is Bob Gainey's team. He failed to address the lack of depth at this position this year and here we are. Looking for a scapegoat? Look behind the bench. Carolina is a better team. Period. Top to bottom. The only position that we really match up favorably with is in goal. And I would say that our defence would be about even. But it is the forward position that we just are not in the same league, top to bottom. And the result is that, once Carolina got decent goaltending we were outclassed. Now would having Saks in the lineup put us over the hump? Maybe. But that is just speculation akin to wondering whether guessing the right 6 numbers Saturday night would win you 30 million.-- Edited by barry33 at 07:34, 2006-05-01

That's why we all listen and agree with you Barry..because you are the voice of reason. On the other hand, when we have a strong opinion, I don't think we should repress those thoughts as long as it's not offensive. Bla, bla,bla...

By no means, was that an "I told you so" post. I agreed that other major factors could of played a big role in the losses BUT do you remeber the last Stanley cup we won against L.A? We were down and Demers demanded a stick curve verification. From that point on, the series changed and the Kings were toast. One incident can change the whole outcome of a playoff series.

My point was that ever since Saku was out, it's just not the same team. Whether we have no replacement makes no difference. Name me one team that can replace a first line center? It's not like teams keep first or second line caliber centers in the stands...It's more the emotional part of it that I wanted to get across. They're just not the same players, mentally.

barry33 · Guru

Key Lime- no question Saks loss has had an influence but I think it has as much to do with how it happened then anything. I guess my point is that GOOD teams play through adversity all the time. Obviously this team is still very fragile and still has "lotsa fixin' ta be dun" (As the Carolina fans would say).

The Kahuna · Guru

That's it in a nutshell Barry. 2-vs 7 and 2 is now playing like 2 while 7 is playing the way that eked them in to 7. This Habs team had flashes of brilliance this year, but only when they were ALL playing together. I agree that losing Koivu should not of been the end of this team, sure it hurt them for all the reasons you mention above, but if the loss of one player means you can never win another game, you're team is as deep as a kiddie pool.

I too am extremely dissapointed in the "I told you so" tone of this thread, I had kind of hoped we'd rise above that after the monster scare we got with Koivu's career threatening issue.

That said, we're far from done! Play game 6 with heart then repeat. All we need is two great team games with players willing to sacrifice by going to the net hard. Do this and we get to the next round. Play like Ribero (who I beleive should be scratched on principle) and I hear Sundin, Tucker & Belfour are looking for a fourth for their 9AM tee time Wednesday!!!

barry33 · Guru

The Kahuna wrote:

That's it in a nutshell Barry. 2-vs 7 and 2 is now playing like 2 while 7 is playing the way that eked them in to 7. This Habs team had flashes of brilliance this year, but only when they were ALL playing together. I agree that losing Koivu should not of been the end of this team, sure it hurt them for all the reasons you mention above, but if the loss of one player means you can never win another game, you're team is as deep as a kiddie pool. I too am extremely dissapointed in the "I told you so" tone of this thread, I had kind of hoped we'd rise above that after the monster scare we got with Koivu's career threatening issue. That said, we're far from done! Play game 6 with heart then repeat. All we need is two great team games with players willing to sacrifice by going to the net hard. Do this and we get to the next round. Play like Ribero (who I beleive should be scratched on principle) and I hear Sundin, Tucker & Belfour are looking for a fourth for their 9AM tee time Wednesday!!!

LMAO Kahuna!

Key Lime · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Key Lime- no question Saks loss has had an influence but I think it has as much to do with how it happened then anything. I guess my point is that GOOD teams play through adversity all the time. Obviously this team is still very fragile and still has "lotsa fixin' ta be dun" (As the Carolina fans would say).

That's exactly the point Barry. An injury to an important player can have a negative affect on a team for one game but not for 3 in a row. There's no excuse why the best line in game 1 & 2 (Ribs/Kovy/Bulis) are not putting the same effort because Pleks' line has put the same great effort in ALL 5 games thus far....even if the refs were horrible, the Canes picked it up a notch, Ward is playing well. Do you understand the message here Barry? It's the effort part. Saks' injury should have the adverse effect as the series goes along...

macneil · Guru

i dont think its i told you so as it is do you believe me now type of post , we miss our leader , so does every team, but as barry said we dont have the depth or the heart to step it up and and replace his leadership .

Key Lime · Guru

macneil wrote:

i dont think its i told you so as it is do you believe me now type of post , we miss our leader , so does every team, but as barry said we dont have the depth or the heart to step it up and and replace his leadership .

You know what the toughest part is...when you say "we don't have the heart to step it up". That's tough to swallow but they haven't proven that they do have the heart..at least in games 4 and 5.

The Kahuna · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

That's exactly the point Barry. An injury to an important player can have a negative affect on a team for one game but not for 3 in a row.

Not on a good team. No one player is bigger than the team NOT ONE! Good teams soldier on when one of the other players goes down to injury. I really beleive that the main factors in the last 3 games are;

1) Cam Ward's play being a Quantum leap over Gerber's play
2) Canes being more confident in front of a hot goalie
3) Canes hungrier and working harder than the Habs
4) Habs not crashing the net
5) Several Habs forward displaying less finish than a fresly sanded end table.

No matter how much you want it to be so, Saku's unfortunate injury IS NOT the reason we've lost three games. This team is very used to Saku missing games the last few years, him being out is not new to them.

adam13 · Member

Reason we are losing without Koivu is simple.

In that moment we went from a team with 4 solid lines: The line 1a Ryder-Higgins-Koivu, 1b Kovy-Ribs-Bulis, energy line Zed-Pleks-Perezhogin and the checking line Bonk-Sunny-Murray.

Without Koivu we went to one real scoring line that Carolina could key on. Carolina knows once u stop Ribs-Kovy-Bulis there are no worries...and its not hard to do that put two on Kovy, hit Ribs every chance you get, and let Bulis skate around to his hearts delight. The energy line has still been good but all 3 lack scoring finish. And well Higgs and Ryder can't create their own offense and Bonk won't do it for them. And well a checking line is unlikely to score for you.

Finally I think the biggest mistake Gainey made was not breaking up Kovy's line. You need to spread the offense throughout the lineup to get more chances. Mind you if Kovy was 100% healthy he could just double shift him all night long.

Habs and Avs Fan · Veteran Member

Well it messes us up mentally and obviously on the lines since no way can Bonk play on the first line, neither can Begin....Koivu has a certain presence than can't be replaced, damn I hope he can come back for game 7. But Habs are winning next game for sure, I see big game for Kovy and Ribs. we can't lose 3 at home.

barry33 · Guru

adam13 wrote:

Reason we are losing without Koivu is simple. In that moment we went from a team with 4 solid lines: The line 1a Ryder-Higgins-Koivu, 1b Kovy-Ribs-Bulis, energy line Zed-Pleks-Perezhogin and the checking line Bonk-Sunny-Murray. Without Koivu we went to one real scoring line that Carolina could key on. Carolina knows once u stop Ribs-Kovy-Bulis there are no worries...and its not hard to do that put two on Kovy, hit Ribs every chance you get, and let Bulis skate around to his hearts delight. The energy line has still been good but all 3 lack scoring finish. And well Higgs and Ryder can't create their own offense and Bonk won't do it for them. And well a checking line is unlikely to score for you. Finally I think the biggest mistake Gainey made was not breaking up Kovy's line. You need to spread the offense throughout the lineup to get more chances. Mind you if Kovy was 100% healthy he could just double shift him all night long.

CAN YOU SAY........... NO DEPTH?!??! And who, my friends, is in charge of "DEPTH"?

Figaro · Guru

barry33 wrote:

CAN YOU SAY........... NO DEPTH?!??! And who, my friends, is in charge of "DEPTH"?

Barry you can't honestly say that Gainey didn't try to land a centre or any other depth player. We had nothing to offer (that we'd actually trade, that is.) Look at who Carolina added - Recchi and Weight. They've done nothing for that team. Seriously, that team will regret those trades in the future years. We won't regret it not selling out the future to win now. Carolina wants it NOW but we want will win it later and be a better team longer.

barry33 · Guru

Figaro wrote:

barry33 wrote: CAN YOU SAY........... NO DEPTH?!??! And who, my friends, is in charge of "DEPTH"? Barry you can't honestly say that Gainey didn't try to land a centre or any other depth player. We had nothing to offer (that we'd actually trade, that is.) Look at who Carolina added - Recchi and Weight. They've done nothing for that team. Seriously, that team will regret those trades in the future years. We won't regret it not selling out the future to win now. Carolina wants it NOW but we want will win it later and be a better team longer.

No Figaro..I have indicated in past posts that I am sure that Gainey tried to land something but was unable to so will wait to see what free agency brings. Just stating a fact that he needs to (as I am sure he is aware) address the depth issue at Centre as this has not happened overnight. We have been weak at this position for 3 -4 years now.

NorthwindNS · Veteran Member

After reading most of this thread I have come to the conclusion....

WE WILL WIN THIS SERIES. We have come way too far not to.

NorthwindNS · Newbie

i agree with you .NorthwindNS

THE PLAYERS ARE TRYING HARD TO MAKE IT..!!AND I AM SURE WE WILL WIN THIS SERIE , well i mean I HOPE =)