Really serious Question

davidb · Guru

Really serious Question

mperra (Admin) · Guru

Kovy cannot be sent down. He has to accept the demotion. It has to do with years of service.

barry33 · Guru

davidb wrote:

I am being serious Now But what can the hockey minds on this board come up with that needs to be done to help the Habs seriously any one know??????? bench people send some down. Can u imagine sendinh Kovy and the Captain down. I would and bring up some fresh faces.

FIRE THE COACH!!! Wait!! Can't do that!! The boss is the coach! I put up with people on this board calling for CJ's head. (and to be fair, many of you supported Julien). Instead of Gainey addressing the REAL problem, fixing the dressingroom, he fires the coach. I said all year long that coaching was not the problem and it STILL isn't. It is lack of leadership, lack of desire, and lack of fire in that room. Bring back Scotty Bowman to coach if you like, that will not change.

Desi · Senior Member

One thing that CJ had that Bob Gainey doesn't seem to bring to the position is any demonstrable passion. The "strong and silent type" act of his is tacit permission to be mediocre. If he's the best hockey mind on the planet and can assemble winning teams with the flick of a magic wand, then fine, let him play the cool cucumber. But this team isn't getting the job done -- and it's HIS team.

The lack of leadership and lack of fire begin with the GM and coach, who in this case are the same tight-lipped statue.

We're talking about hockey players, here. They need to be wound up and told what to do in no uncertain terms -- and maybe even yelled at from time to time. Bowman wasn't shy about saying exactly what was on his mind, whether it was to a player, a ref or the press.

It's almost as if BG is trying to distance himself from the performance of the team by being so aloof -- when what the team needs is for HIM to roll up his sleeves and provide real leadership. That leadership should have come in the form of a meaningful, siganl-sending trade or two well before the deadline, but that's a topic for another time. Since we're stuck with the players we have -- it's HIS job to motivate them, just as it was CJ's. If he doesn't, or if this group of miscreants can't be motivated, then they should all go.

There's too much pride in Montreal and too much love for this team for it to be rudderless.

Les Canadiens sont la

barry33 · Guru

Desi wrote:

One thing that CJ had that Bob Gainey doesn't seem to bring to the position is any demonstrable passion. The "strong and silent type" act of his is tacit permission to be mediocre. If he's the best hockey mind on the planet and can assemble winning teams with the flick of a magic wand, then fine, let him play the cool cucumber. But this team isn't getting the job done -- and it's HIS team. The lack of leadership and lack of fire begin with the GM and coach, who in this case are the same tight-lipped statue. We're talking about hockey players, here. They need to be wound up and told what to do in no uncertain terms -- and maybe even yelled at from time to time. Bowman wasn't shy about saying exactly what was on his mind, whether it was to a player, a ref or the press. It's almost as if BG is trying to distance himself from the performance of the team by being so aloof -- when what the team needs is for HIM to roll up his sleeves and provide real leadership. That leadership should have come in the form of a meaningful, siganl-sending trade or two well before the deadline, but that's a topic for another time. Since we're stuck with the players we have -- it's HIS job to motivate them, just as it was CJ's. If he doesn't, or if this group of miscreants can't be motivated, then they should all go. There's too much pride in Montreal and too much love for this team for it to be rudderless. Les Canadiens sont la

Well put..thank you Desi..Desi sont la

MC Girl · Guru

barry33 wrote:

davidb wrote: I am being serious Now But what can the hockey minds on this board come up with that needs to be done to help the Habs seriously any one know??????? bench people send some down. Can u imagine sendinh Kovy and the Captain down. I would and bring up some fresh faces. FIRE THE COACH!!! Wait!! Can't do that!! The boss is the coach! I put up with people on this board calling for CJ's head. (and to be fair, many of you supported Julien). Instead of Gainey addressing the REAL problem, fixing the dressingroom, he fires the coach. I said all year long that coaching was not the problem and it STILL isn't. It is lack of leadership, lack of desire, and lack of fire in that room. Bring back Scotty Bowman to coach if you like, that will not change.

Well maybe if the coach got fired up on the bench, the players would get fired up on the ice. We seem to get the calm / reserved coachs. I think we could use a little feistiness on the bench. Make a fuss when you see a bad call, don't just shrug & say "Oh Well". If the coachs aren't sticking up for the team & giving them 100% heart.... why should the team give it to them?

barry33 · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

barry33 wrote: davidb wrote: I am being serious Now But what can the hockey minds on this board come up with that needs to be done to help the Habs seriously any one know??????? bench people send some down. Can u imagine sendinh Kovy and the Captain down. I would and bring up some fresh faces. FIRE THE COACH!!! Wait!! Can't do that!! The boss is the coach! I put up with people on this board calling for CJ's head. (and to be fair, many of you supported Julien). Instead of Gainey addressing the REAL problem, fixing the dressingroom, he fires the coach. I said all year long that coaching was not the problem and it STILL isn't. It is lack of leadership, lack of desire, and lack of fire in that room. Bring back Scotty Bowman to coach if you like, that will not change. Well maybe if the coach got fired up on the bench, the players would get fired up on the ice. We seem to get the calm / reserved coachs. I think we could use a little feistiness on the bench. Make a fuss when you see a bad call, don't just shrug & say "Oh Well". If the coachs aren't sticking up for the team & giving them 100% heart.... why should the team give it to them?

I can give you 4.5 million reasons why the team should try. This is not Novice hockey for God's sake where you should need the "go get one for he gipper" speech. These guys are supposed "professionals". It all comes down to PRIDE. PRIDE in your team, in yourself, and most of all, in the sweater you wear. Painfully obvious that few on this team have that. If you have pride you do not need anyone to babysit or motivate you.

davidb · Guru

Well, Thank you all for your responses. Sometimes in the times like these it just feels better to know that other people are on the same page as i am TY

MC Girl · Guru

barry33 wrote:

I can give you 4.5 million reasons why the team should try. This is not Novice hockey for God's sake where you should need the "go get one for he gipper" speech. These guys are supposed "professionals". It all comes down to PRIDE. PRIDE in your team, in yourself, and most of all, in the sweater you wear. Painfully obvious that few on this team have that. If you have pride you do not need anyone to babysit or motivate you.

Yeah well guess what Hun!!!! That "go get one for the gipper" speech works. Look @ other teams, look in other sports.

The more fired up they are coming out of the locker room & the more fired up they are on the bench , the more fired up they are on the bench, the more fired up on the ice. Are they are all having "nap time" in there? Take down the enemy.... leave no one standing.... victory is ours for the taking.... these words motivate. Quiet contemplation is just that... QUIET... & our team has been very quiet as of late. So maybe they need a little (How'd you put it) "Novice hockey" motivation in their game.

-- Edited by MC Girl at 13:57, 2006-03-22

barry33 · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

barry33 wrote: I can give you 4.5 million reasons why the team should try. This is not Novice hockey for God's sake where you should need the "go get one for he gipper" speech. These guys are supposed "professionals". It all comes down to PRIDE. PRIDE in your team, in yourself, and most of all, in the sweater you wear. Painfully obvious that few on this team have that. If you have pride you do not need anyone to babysit or motivate you. Yeah well guess what Hun!!!! That "go get one for the gipper" speech works. Look @ other teams, look in other sports. The more fired up they are coming out of the locker room & the more fired up they are on the bench , the more fired up they are on the bench, the more fired up on the ice. Are they are all having "nap time" in there? Take down the enemy.... leave no one standing.... victory is ours for the taking.... these words motivate. Quiet contemplation is just that... QUIET... & our team has been very quiet as of late. So maybe they need a little (How'd you put it) "Novice hockey" motivation in their game.-- Edited by MC Girl at 13:57, 2006-03-22

MC Girl you make good points and I guess what it comes down to is that a team should NOT need to be motivated at this level but it appears that the habs do. Which then come back to what I have been saying all year. If they do NOT have the pride and self motivation to do the job without being ra ra'd all the time, then perhaps we do not have the right players in that dressingroom?

MC Girl · Guru

barry33 wrote:

MC Girl you make good points and I guess what it comes down to is that a team should NOT need to be motivated at this level but it appears that the habs do. Which then come back to what I have been saying all year. If they do NOT have the pride and self motivation to do the job without being ra ra'd all the time, then perhaps we do not have the right players in that dressingroom?

It doesn't matter if they do or do not need it. If they do... the coach should be doing it... If they don't..... then he doesn't have to.

A true coach sees where the team needs help & works to fix it. If motivation it what they need... that's what he needs to give them. Who cares about what level they play at! You might not think there's a need for it in the NHL but that's your opinion. Judging by our team's play, I think it is just what the doctor ordered.

Some runners can run an entire marathon without any encouragement, others need people to shout encouraging things to them along the way to give them pep in their step. Do the runners who aren't in need of encouraging finish before the ones that do? Nope! 'cause sometimes (depending on the person/people) it gives them the push they need to surpass all others.

-- Edited by MC Girl at 15:03, 2006-03-22

24 Rings · Guru

barry33 wrote:

I guess what it comes down to is that a team should NOT need to be motivated at this level but it appears that the habs do.

Totally agree. Does anyone really think that Koivu or BG or anyone else really needs to motivate these guys at this stage of the game? I would have thought that fighting to get into the playoffs would be enough. Why should someone always have to motivate them to be successful? Aren't these guys professionals? I can't think of a better test than against the leaves to see if this club really wants to make the playoffs or not.

MC Girl · Guru

24 Rings wrote:

barry33 wrote: I guess what it comes down to is that a team should NOT need to be motivated at this level but it appears that the habs do. Totally agree. Does anyone really think that Koivu or BG or anyone else really needs to motivate these guys at this stage of the game? I would have thought that fighting to get into the playoffs would be enough. Why should someone always have to motivate them to be successful? Aren't these guys professionals? I can't think of a better test than against the leaves to see if this club really wants to make the playoffs or not.

You 2 must be right!!! Why try something that might just work.

Dammit, is it too much to ask put the pride aside & have them go with gusto? Who cares about the level, who cares that they are prof. players.... If it works, it works.

They have mascot's to jazz up the crowd when they start to quiet & lose their focus.... Why the heck can't it be a solution in the dressing room?

24 Rings · Guru

I'm sure they've tried. What I'm saying is that making the play-offs should be all the motivation they need. What more can anyone say to get them going?

habgirl · Guru

barry33 wrote:
I guess what it comes down to is that a team should NOT need to be motivated at this level but it appears that the habs do. Which then come back to what I have been saying all year. If they do NOT have the pride and self motivation to do the job without being ra ra'd all the time, then perhaps we do not have the right players in that dressingroom?

Amen. It is painfully obvious, especially when they should be fighting for their playoff lives, that this team, at this point, does not have the fire. Talent? Yes, individually. But not as a team because they're not playing that way.

Before anybody swipes at me, I am not jumping off the wagon. However, although some of the players on the Habs current roster are among my favourites in the league (Kovy, please stand up), I wouldn't be sad to see them go elsewhere over the summer.

No cohesion in the dressing room? Been a problem for several years? Yes, the team needs a Captain more than ever. But I think even Saks is giving up. It seems that this has been festering for too long and I'm afraid it may be too late. Sure, it's the Captain's job to motivate and inspire, but even the Captain needs support from on high. If he ain't getting it, he's still working with the same cracked team that is breaking more and more by the minute. I'd rather have a roster of heart, guts and determination than individual superstars that can't play as a team.

Take, as an example, my team at work...they work extremely well together, and don't often need my input. However, even a few of my "stars" have been called out on occasion. And if that doesn't work, I have no choice but to keep the cohesion of the team together and "trade" (ok, let go) the star. Sure, individually they may be dynamite. But if they're poisoning the dressing room - or office - something has to drastically change.

Bob, enough already. You know the drill - you've been around the block too many times to not see what's apparently going on. If the fans outside can see it, I can't even imagine how bad it is inside.

MC Girl · Guru

24 Rings wrote:

I'm sure they've tried. What I'm saying is that making the play-offs should be all the motivation they need. What more can anyone say to get them going?

Well they no longer hold a playoff spot & I'm hoping that will be enough get them going.

Looks to me like they were trying to coast into the playoffs, but it didn't work. They need to push it now & not wait till the playoffs to turn it up, 'cause they may not make it there.

Give it their all like it's the Stanley Cup final every single game, that's the best they can do. & IT IS Bob's job to get that motivational point across.

MC Girl · Guru

habgirl wrote:

Amen. It is painfully obvious, especially when they should be fighting for their playoff lives, that this team, at this point, does not have the fire. Talent? Yes, individually. But not as a team because they're not playing that way. Before anybody swipes at me, I am not jumping off the wagon. However, although some of the players on the Habs current roster are among my favourites in the league (Kovy, please stand up), I wouldn't be sad to see them go elsewhere over the summer. No cohesion in the dressing room? Been a problem for several years? Yes, the team needs a Captain more than ever. But I think even Saks is giving up. It seems that this has been festering for too long and I'm afraid it may be too late. Sure, it's the Captain's job to motivate and inspire, but even the Captain needs support from on high. If he ain't getting it, he's still working with the same cracked team that is breaking more and more by the minute. I'd rather have a roster of heart, guts and determination than individual superstars that can't play as a team. Take, as an example, my team at work...they work extremely well together, and don't often need my input. However, even a few of my "stars" have been called out on occasion. And if that doesn't work, I have no choice but to keep the cohesion of the team together and "trade" (ok, let go) the star. Sure, individually they may be dynamite. But if they're poisoning the dressing room - or office - something has to drastically change. Bob, enough already. You know the drill - you've been around the block too many times to not see what's apparently going on. If the fans outside can see it, I can't even imagine how bad it is inside.

I see (& agree with most of) what you're saying.

However, Do you try to "motivate" your team members @ work before letting them go??? Or do you just call them out & if there's no vast improvement, fire them?

It's a simple task (to help motivate employees) that may just turn their work ethic around @ work (or on ice) & make everyone involved happy. Again, who cares that they shouldn't need it. If they do.... give it to them.

habgirl · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

However, Do you try to "motivate" your team members @ work before letting them go??? Or do you just call them out & if there's no vast improvement, fire them?

Actually, sometimes it is not so simple. When managing (or Captaining) a team, it's your job to ensure that the tools are in place to motivate that team. You should be their biggest champion. However it is surprising what one poisonous apple can do to completely de-motivate a team and send a previously over-achieving team's morale through the floor.

If the coach isn't given the tools (ie locker room guys) to motivate the team and someone(s) in the room is drawing a line in the sand, that someone(s) has gotta go. No amount of coddling, motivational speech or (finally) reprimands work with some people. Again, a superstar in their own right, but if they lack the personality to gel with a team, it's pretty difficult to change them.

It appears to me that Koivu does not have the necessary tools to do his job as Captain. We know he can lead. We know he can gel a team. We know he has had magic up his sleeve before. But whatever magic he has had in the past isn't enough any more. He needs some help and Bob, as GM (or CEO, whatever) has to dig deep to figure out what he needs to do to turn this around. Something has got to give - it's been too long. Captain K can't bring morale back for more than a few games at a time. There's something stinky in that d room and it's time to wipe it clean.

MC Girl · Guru

habgirl wrote:

MC Girl wrote: However, Do you try to "motivate" your team members @ work before letting them go??? Or do you just call them out & if there's no vast improvement, fire them? Actually, sometimes it is not so simple. When managing (or Captaining) a team, it's your job to ensure that the tools are in place to motivate that team. You should be their biggest champion. However it is surprising what one poisonous apple can do to completely de-motivate a team and send a previously over-achieving team's morale through the floor. If the coach isn't given the tools (ie locker room guys) to motivate the team and someone(s) in the room is drawing a line in the sand, that someone(s) has gotta go. No amount of coddling, motivational speech or (finally) reprimands work with some people. Again, a superstar in their own right, but if they lack the personality to gel with a team, it's pretty difficult to change them. It appears to me that Koivu does not have the necessary tools to do his job as Captain. We know he can lead. We know he can gel a team. We know he has had magic up his sleeve before. But whatever magic he has had in the past isn't enough any more. He needs some help and Bob, as GM (or CEO, whatever) has to dig deep to figure out what he needs to do to turn this around. Something has got to give - it's been too long. Captain K can't bring morale back for more than a few games at a time. There's something stinky in that d room and it's time to wipe it clean.

I must admit, I was surprised when Koivu was resigned. I figured Kovalev was brought to the team to eventually be Captain. Although he's not playing stellar right now, he's got what it takes. I've never seen such a great puck handler. He can do some crazy stuff with that puck.

I'm saddened to see he's not getting the respect he deserves.

24 Rings · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

I'm saddened to see he's not getting the respect he deserves.

Respect went out the window against Boston in overtime in 2004 when he clenched his wrist like a little bitch instead of turning around and getting the puck out of the zone. He will never be a captain anywhere...and you can bank on it.

MC Girl · Guru

24 Rings wrote:

MC Girl wrote: I'm saddened to see he's not getting the respect he deserves. Respect went out the window against Boston in overtime in 2004 when he clenched his wrist like a little bitch instead of turning around and getting the puck out of the zone. He will never be a captain anywhere...and you can bank on it.

That post doesn't even deserve a response!!!

24 Rings · Guru

You're right because it is the blatant truth.

He's a floater and a terrible leader. He really tries hard, though...in the offensive zone!

MC Girl · Guru

24 Rings wrote:

You're right because it is the blatant truth. He's a floater and a terrible leader. He really tries hard, though...in the offensive zone!

I'm not saying your post doesn't deserve a response because I think he will be captain someday. I'm saying your crude use of words are uncalled for & don't deserve a response because of them.

habgirl · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

I must admit, I was surprised when Koivu was resigned. I figured Kovalev was brought to the team to eventually be Captain. Although he's not playing stellar right now, he's got what it takes. I've never seen such a great puck handler. He can do some crazy stuff with that puck. I'm saddened to see he's not getting the respect he deserves.

Wait, don't get me wrong. I am not saying the Captain's gotta go. I believe he should stay - but I believe he cannot get the job done in that locker room with the divide that there is.

I was actually referring to Kovalev. Yup, he posesses the magic and the talent - that is what is so infuriating when he floats around in the opposition's zone. However, as I stated, even an individual superstar does not a team make.

If the dressing room is broken, it needs fixing. And even if the "f*** off" comment to Rivet was out of frustration, joking, whatever - it is completely uncalled for in a game situation. All signs seem to be pointing to a great divide and I don't think Kovy's the type of personality that can take constructive criticism and come to work willing to be a team player. That's just my opinion.

24 Rings · Guru

MC Girl wrote:

I'm not saying your post doesn't deserve a response because I think he will be captain someday. I'm saying your crude use of words are uncalled for & don't deserve a response because of them.

I apologize, let me rephrase that for you...

Respect went out the window against Boston in overtime in 2004 when he clenched his wrist like a little female dog instead of turning around and getting the puck out of the zone.

MC Girl · Guru

habgirl wrote:

MC Girl wrote: I must admit, I was surprised when Koivu was resigned. I figured Kovalev was brought to the team to eventually be Captain. Although he's not playing stellar right now, he's got what it takes. I've never seen such a great puck handler. He can do some crazy stuff with that puck. I'm saddened to see he's not getting the respect he deserves. Wait, don't get me wrong. I am not saying the Captain's gotta go. I believe he should stay - but I believe he cannot get the job done in that locker room with the divide that there is. I was actually referring to Kovalev. Yup, he posesses the magic and the talent - that is what is so infuriating when he floats around in the opposition's zone. However, as I stated, even an individual superstar does not a team make. If the dressing room is broken, it needs fixing. And even if the "f*** off" comment to Rivet was out of frustration, joking, whatever - it is completely uncalled for in a game situation. All signs seem to be pointing to a great divide and I don't think Kovy's the type of personality that can take constructive criticism and come to work willing to be a team player. That's just my opinion.

& it's a good one & yes you're right. But where is the proof that Kovy did this? I still haven't seen any. Have I missed something? Where can I find out about this "so called" verbal assault?

I'm not taking any thing I read in these various posts to the bank & I have only heard of this ordeal on this site.

rwp2le · Guru

24 Rings wrote:

MC Girl wrote: I'm not saying your post doesn't deserve a response because I think he will be captain someday. I'm saying your crude use of words are uncalled for & don't deserve a response because of them. I apologize, let me rephrase that for you... Respect went out the window against Boston in overtime in 2004 when he clenched his wrist like a little female dog instead of turning around and getting the puck out of the zone.

I think the funny thing is that without him in that series it would have ended in 5 games, instead of 7, I do believe that it was Kovalev who won that series for us. I love all the shots at our ONLY world class player. I wonder how well Jagr would be doing playing with a left winger that would play on the 4th line in most cities (Zeds or Perz) and a centerman who is to small and frail to play at the junior level. The biggest problem with this team is the "balanced attack" that we are trying to use, when the reality is that without Kovy we have no attack at all. How balanced is that? BTW how did Jagr do when he didnt play with other world class player? Plus who is leading the team in scoring? Who has gotten points in all but 2 games since the olympics? Koviu is the problem, not Kovalev. But hey, lets keep talking about how bad he plays when 3 guys can move to him every time he has the puck, lets not address the real issue of the lack of talent. Who in thier right mind would play a guy like this with Bonk and Begin? I have seen it from our coach. Bring in someone for Kovy to play with and your tunes will all change, well except maybe Barry's.

MC Girl · Guru

24 Rings wrote:

MC Girl wrote: I'm not saying your post doesn't deserve a response because I think he will be captain someday. I'm saying your crude use of words are uncalled for & don't deserve a response because of them. I apologize, let me rephrase that for you... Respect went out the window against Boston in overtime in 2004 when he clenched his wrist like a little female dog instead of turning around and getting the puck out of the zone.

One thing happened ... ohhhhh let me see..... 2 years ago & you make up your mind that he's worthless. He's brought our team amazing playing too. He was off through November / December due to injury (& our team suffered for that loss) & then he came back & lit it up.

Again, I agree he hasn't played his peak performance lately, but don't slam the guy & crap all over the value he actually has brought to us because of an O/T stunt 2 years ago.

& I don't appreciate the degrading way you rephrased your post.

24 Rings · Guru

Allright, can we just agree to disagree?

Didn't say he was worthless or a bad player, I just don't respect him. I would never want him as a captain and I am positive that he will never captain a club. He floats around way too much, never ever plays defense and is very tempermental - he plays when he feels like it. He can score when he wants to, I'll give you that, but if he is such an elite player why can't he bag 20 goals. Sorry if my comment offended you, but it was directed at Kovy and not yourself.

rwp2le · Guru

And as my beautiful wife just pointed out to me, my comment about all but Barry's opinion changing looks at if it is a shot at him, it don't mean for it to be taken that way. I believe Barry is so hard on Kovy because he feels he is very much responsible for CJ's departure, and if it was my friend I would be in the same boat, so please don't take that as a shot Barry, just an observation from someone who would hate the person who helped get my buddy fired too. Sorry for the bad wording.