Anyone see Saku...???

Ando · Guru

Anyone see Saku...???

Key Lime · Guru

Now I know what you're all about Ando...thank you for writing this post. It's much clearer to me now...The whole team stunk! We got beat by a bunch of no-names at this crucial point in the season and you're calling out one player!!! Did you even watch the game?

skov1044 · Member

granted the whole team stunk

but u can read everywhere koivu is tired from the olympics,god damn it gainey do i have to spell it out for you give the guy a rest

Pablo Honey · Veteran Member

Key Lime wrote:

Now I know what you're all about Ando...thank you for writing this post. It's much clearer to me now...The whole team stunk! We got beat by a bunch of no-names at this crucial point in the season and you're calling out one player!!! Did you even watch the game?

I've got 4.75 million reasons that tell me Saku should be the last guy to stink it up on the ice.

When you're one of the teams highest paid players, you need to start playing like it. Also, you're more suseptable to criticism. What other team in the NHL would tolerate their captain and one of their highest paid players to phone it home on a nightly basis like Saku has when your team is smack in the middle of a playoff spot hunt?

We know the whole team sucked. But a lot of these guys aren't supposed to be superstars. Saku is. That's the point of And-O's thread.

Furthermore, your defense of Saku in a time when he clearly has not been playing anywhere close to the expected standard shows that he does have some sort of immunity on this board. There are few who will openly critisize Koivu because of this.

-- Edited by Pablo Honey at 22:02, 2006-03-21

nietche · Veteran Member

Ando is right in calling out Saku. The "Capitain" hasn't scored in 19 games now. Plain pathetic. He should bench himself ... or tell Gainey to play other centres ahead of him.

If Sundin, Alfredson, Forsberg, OR ANY OTHER team capitain turned in the performance that Sak's has in the last 20 games they would be getting called out too.

Damn shame I say, Saku's gotten ALOT of support and adulation from the Habs, and from Hab fans and sad to say he has NOT DELIVERED the goods to merit anything except jeers. I say it's time to call him out, questions his leadership and his own abilities (Imagine if Gainey had not signed him .... do you think any team would be thinking about offering him 5 million! NO WAY)

Key Lime · Guru

Pablo Honey wrote:

Key Lime wrote: Now I know what you're all about Ando...thank you for writing this post. It's much clearer to me now...The whole team stunk! We got beat by a bunch of no-names at this crucial point in the season and you're calling out one player!!! Did you even watch the game? I've got 4.75 million reasons that tell me Saku should be the last guy to stink it up on the ice. When you're one of the teams highest paid players, you need to start playing like it. Also, you're more suseptable to criticism. What other team in the NHL would tolerate their captain and one of their highest paid players to phone it home on a nightly basis like Saku has when your team is smack in the middle of a playoff spot hunt? We know the whole team sucked. But a lot of these guys aren't supposed to be superstars. Saku is. That's the point of And-O's thread. Furthermore, your defense of Saku in a time when he clearly has not been playing anywhere close to the expected standard shows that he does have some sort of immunity on this board. There are few who will openly critisize Koivu because of this.-- Edited by Pablo Honey at 22:02, 2006-03-21

But why wasn't Kovalev's name mentioned then, how much does he make???you know what, the WHOLE TEAM deserves critism tonight and if you blame tonight's loss on one player then when they win you should give praise only one player??? Makes a lot of sense! BTW How much is Ando paying you for being his spokesperson?

Key Lime · Guru

nietche wrote:

Ando is right in calling out Saku. The "Capitain" hasn't scored in 19 games now. Plain pathetic. He should bench himself ... or tell Gainey to play other centres ahead of him. If Sundin, Alfredson, Forsberg, OR ANY OTHER team capitain turned in the performance that Sak's has in the last 20 games they would be getting called out too. Damn shame I say, Saku's gotten ALOT of support and adulation from the Habs, and from Hab fans and sad to say he has NOT DELIVERED the goods to merit anything except jeers. I say it's time to call him out, questions his leadership and his own abilities (Imagine if Gainey had not signed him .... do you think any team would be thinking about offering him 5 million! NO WAY)

Sundin, Alfredsson, FORSBERG...you mean to tell me that you actually put Koivu in their league? I don't and never will. I'm not blinded by the salary he makes...GAINEY WAS DUMB ENOUGH TO GIVE HIM THAT LOAD OF CASH.. Now that he makes 4.5 mill, he will suddenly become a Forsberg? He never was and never will be... BTW When I say the whole team stunk, Koivu is part of that team that stunk, so Koivu, you stunk more because you make more.

Gravelbourger · Member

At the end of the day your franchise player and captain need to score once every 20 games already. In four out of the last five games we've lost and have been outperformed in net......you need goaltending at this time of year and we aren't getting it. 2 of three goals tonight were classified as SSSSSSSSOFT!!!

Muller93 · Guru

Ando wrote:

...he was just awesome in that final minute! Seriously though, if any other Hab turned in this many stinkers in a row, this board would be over-flowing with demands to have the guy visit the pressbox! Why on Earth would Gainey not bump every other centre up in the rotation...and just pray that Saku somehow finds some use or than to flop around like a rag-doll! Anyone keeping track of the number of times he hits the ice??? Too funny! Imagine what the likes of Ottawa or Carolina would do to blanket Saku in the playoffs!?

Problem is And-o, this whole team stinks. I will maintain that Koivu is still the habs best all around player. Not saying much? You may be right. But And-o, rather than come on here spewing your anti-Koivu stench...why not just call it as it is? This whole TEAM stinks.

Like I said before, you can replace Koivu with even a vintage Mario Lemiuex and the outcome would not change much. Especially with Ribeiro as the back up guy.

Pittsburg had a awsome Mario lemieux but never did much until a guy named Jagr appeared as the second line center. In fact Pittsburg sucked big time.

No And-o , I am not comparing Saku to Lemieux...just saying that maybe the scoring and losing problems run a little deeper than your " let's run Koivu out of town fantasy".

AB Habman · Guru

OK, I was hoping that Saks would and could redeem himself in the playoffs and turn it up a notch then. Now, will we see the playoffs? Whether our so called core players are saving themselves for a monumental event, I'm not sure but they have to have the mentallity that the playoffs are now!

I was harder on Saks last season, than now because of the constant backlash this season, I have eased up alot but I will say Saks is a worse player this season. Possibly his worse and the irony of him cashing in just makes me sick to my stomach!

I'm at a loss for words.

Someone please tell me, are we totally underachieving or do have a team of lousy players? How can we lose almost every game Markov misses? Is he that good or are we that bad? We need at least three more talented guys like him or our so called go to guys to work waaaaaay harder! Show me some desperation!

Or do we take the blame away from these guys and blame Gainey for his passiveness as a GM and poor coaching methods? I think most of the blame has to be where the money is thrown...at the players!

AB Habman · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

Ando wrote: ...he was just awesome in that final minute! Seriously though, if any other Hab turned in this many stinkers in a row, this board would be over-flowing with demands to have the guy visit the pressbox! Why on Earth would Gainey not bump every other centre up in the rotation...and just pray that Saku somehow finds some use or than to flop around like a rag-doll! Anyone keeping track of the number of times he hits the ice??? Too funny! Imagine what the likes of Ottawa or Carolina would do to blanket Saku in the playoffs!? Problem is And-o, this whole team stinks. I will maintain that Koivu is still the habs best all around player. Not saying much? You may be right. But And-o, rather than come on here spewing your anti-Koivu stench...why not just call it as it is? This whole TEAM stinks. Like I said before, you can replace Koivu with even a vintage Mario Lemiuex and the outcome would not change much. Especially with Ribeiro as the back up guy. Pittsburg had a awsome Mario lemieux but never did much until a guy named Jagr appeared as the second line center. In fact Pittsburg sucked big time. No And-o , I am not comparing Saku to Lemieux...just saying that maybe the scoring and losing problems run a little deeper than your " let's run Koivu out of town fantasy".

Please Muller, I beg you to open your eyes and tell me that Ribs isn't the problem for the last 20 games. I think he is now playing to his potential when it matters. The guy isn't a multi-million dollar wage earner! Blaming Ribs or anyone else for the poor play of Saks is just becoming plain silly....sorry no more excuses please!

Key Lime · Guru

Muller I'm now convinced that Ando does it on purpose and I'm an idiot to fall for it...he knows that the team hasn't been losing because of one player. He's doing it to be contraversial. It's old and tired...just like the Habs' performances this year. Think about it, not one player on this team has had a "very good season". Not one. That's concerning.

davidb · Guru

I knew the excuses would continue after the olympics about people being tired. Nothing against you but I am very tired of hearing people r tired.

Pablo Honey · Veteran Member

Key Lime wrote:

But why wasn't Kovalev's name mentioned then, how much does he make???you know what, the WHOLE TEAM deserves critism tonight and if you blame tonight's loss on one player then when they win you should give praise only one player??? Makes a lot of sense! BTW How much is Ando paying you for being his spokesperson?

1) Kovy is bashed all season long for having no heart. We almost always call him out. Not that it makes a difference since he seems indifferent to criticism. He stunk tonight as well and he's played pretty crappy as of late too.

2) Tonights loss is not being blamed on ONE player. Have you read the thread? We're talking about Koivu's play in the last stretch of the season: the most important stretch.

3) Ando is not funding me for stating my OWN opion. It just shows that if someone calls it like it is when it comes to Koivu's play, people question the integrity of his statement.

plouf · Guru

Dumb to blame only Saku, but blind to say he's done much since the break. I'm not going to deny it's the worst stretch of his career, faceoffs, defensive zone coverage and all.

I don't know the reason. I don't agree with And-o that he's the big problem though. It's a bad slump, unfortunately, but it's a team thing above all, and it's affecting pretty much everyone. At least on offense.

I don't know why And-o gets so much pleasure out of Saku's failings but forgets when his favourite players don't show up for whole seasons (remember, he's been a big fan of Kovalev and Souray)...spread it around a bit And-o and it would have more credibility, because if you add up this whole season, as bad as it has been for Koivu, he's still been one of our best players, and was definitely our best forward in the first half. I'm afraid Kovalev is the only other forward who's potentially been better. How scary is that? Every other guy has been even streakier than Saks. Or they are like Begin, great at certain things but not expected to put up the points. It's not just about the 4.5 mil guy who's playing below his potential, but also about every other guy who's playing for less than he's worth. Which is damn near everyone except the rookies, who can be expected to be streaky.

Exceptions: Begin, Bouillon, Rivet, Markov, Huet, Higgins, all of whom who have been worth whatever they're being paid. Even Plekanec, who looks like an up-and-comer, is invisible WAY more often than he should be. And heck even Higgins flatters to deceive much of the time.

Why does this same bunch of guys, same captain, etc...play worse than they did last year?

If I had an answer I'd be the head coach...or GM.....or And-o.

plouf · Guru

Pablo Honey wrote:

3) Ando is not funding me for stating my OWN opion. It just shows that if someone calls it like it is when it comes to Koivu's play, people question the integrity of his statement.

Just emotions my friend. I think we can all recognize that Koivu is letting us down right now.

Koivu's my favourite player on the team, but I'm not blind (or deaf, since lately it's been mostly radio). At the same time, he's come through in the crunch before, perhaps like no other (and as recently as the last playoffs), so many of us are not ready to give up on him is all.

I think he needs to play on a better team because he is not a "carry the team" type player, and with Kovalev putting in inconsistent displays, there is tons of pressure on him to be one. My feeling is that Montreal is a team without true superstars, and so needs to function as a unit, like Buffalo, say. That is not happening, and it's hard to know where to place the blame. CJ, Theodore, Koivu and Gainey have all received major criticism for being the primary culprits. I suspect it's a bigger list than that, but a lot was expected from those four and so it's their responsibility first.

The only ones whose integrity is really under question are the obsessed ones, And-o and AB Habman, because they seem to take a delight in anything that goes wrong for the captain. (Although AB's been making such a great attempt at broadening his views lately that when he attacks Koivu I actually buy that it's based on a real observation.)

AB Habman · Guru

plouf wrote:

Pablo Honey wrote: 3) Ando is not funding me for stating my OWN opion. It just shows that if someone calls it like it is when it comes to Koivu's play, people question the integrity of his statement. Just emotions my friend. I think we can all recognize that Koivu is letting us down right now. Koivu's my favourite player on the team, but I'm not blind (or deaf, since lately it's been mostly radio). At the same time, he's come through in the crunch before, perhaps like no other (and as recently as the last playoffs), so many of us are not ready to give up on him is all. I think he needs to play on a better team because he is not a "carry the team" type player, and with Kovalev putting in inconsistent displays, there is tons of pressure on him to be one. My feeling is that Montreal is a team without true superstars, and so needs to function as a unit, like Buffalo, say. That is not happening, and it's hard to know where to place the blame. CJ, Theodore, Koivu and Gainey have all received major criticism for being the primary culprits. I suspect it's a bigger list than that, but a lot was expected from those four and so it's their responsibility first. The only ones whose integrity is really under question are the obsessed ones, And-o and AB Habman, because they seem to take a delight in anything that goes wrong for the captain. (Although AB's been making such a great attempt at broadening his views lately that when he attacks Koivu I actually buy that it's based on a real observation.)

Plouf. right now, it's out right concern for missing the playoffs!

AB Habman · Guru

I need to add also that many are trying to grab players and lump them with Saks to minimize the damage especially a guy like Kovy because like Saks, he earns big bucks. The thing is though, Kovy played well tonight. He's strong on the puck even in double coverage and showed some passion in this game. He's coming around a little and doing some good things.

If you look at the Saks line, players are all over Higgins and taking his space. Teams do their home work. They know that Higgins is the dangerous player on that line. Saks has alot of ice to work with because he doesn't draw the coverage like Higgins and still ineffective.

I will admit it takes a whole team and they look flat but the plumbers need a spark from the spark plugs. Saks fire burned out in Nov.

Habtastic · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

I need to add also that many are trying to grab players and lump them with Saks to minimize the damage especially a guy like Kovy because like Saks, he earns big bucks. The thing is though, Kovy played well tonight.

From what I have read and heard on the radio, Saks had a pretty strong game. He was not on for a goal against and he had 2 shots, as well as setting up Ryder (8 shots) all night. As for Kovalev playing well, he was on for all 3 of the Islander's goals. So who played better?

Habtastic

barry33 · Guru

Ando wrote:

...he was just awesome in that final minute! Seriously though, if any other Hab turned in this many stinkers in a row, this board would be over-flowing with demands to have the guy visit the pressbox! Why on Earth would Gainey not bump every other centre up in the rotation...and just pray that Saku somehow finds some use or than to flop around like a rag-doll! Anyone keeping track of the number of times he hits the ice??? Too funny! Imagine what the likes of Ottawa or Carolina would do to blanket Saku in the playoffs!?

And-O- I will not disagree with you regarding Koivu as I "called him out" on here this week. Like it or not, the team's fortunes start and end with the little captain. I am still amazed at his performance in Italy. If he had 1/4 the effort and energy in a habs uniform we would not be where we are now.

However, what bugs me is that you now make no mention of coaching. You were the most vocal critic of CJ on this board, calling for his head time and time again. You called him a "moron", "useless", etc. Finally got your wish and guess what? Newsflash!!! Coaching was NOT the problem. This team fired one of the best coaches in the league, I believe coach number 6 in 10 years. No change. Still no heart, still bickering. Still losing. I get satisfaction in knowing that CJ is sitting at home smiling.

Ando · Guru

barry33 wrote:

...You were the most vocal critic of CJ on this board, calling for his head time and time again. You called him a "moron", "useless", etc. Finally got your wish and guess what? Newsflash!!! Coaching was NOT the problem. This team fired one of the best coaches in the league, I believe coach number 6 in 10 years. No change. Still no heart, still bickering. Still losing.

Hey Barry33...you missed And-o's post from earlier in this week...see below...

Bob Gainey's style, in my opinion, has strayed from his earlier success.

What happened to always advancing the puck? What happened to a tenacious forecheck? What happened to the forwards almost beating the d-men back to help the goalie? What happened to sticking up for your mates?

Also...And-o sees a growing lack of 'common sense' things...for example, no accountability for taking totally selfish penalties time-after-time. No implications for guys simply not even getting a shot-on-goal during an odd-man rush. Almost no sense of urgency!? No passion!? And, why can't this team ever just win a game from start to finish...no killer instinct whatsoever!!!?

plouf · Guru

Habtastic wrote:

AB Habman wrote: I need to add also that many are trying to grab players and lump them with Saks to minimize the damage especially a guy like Kovy because like Saks, he earns big bucks. The thing is though, Kovy played well tonight. From what I have read and heard on the radio, Saks had a pretty strong game. He was not on for a goal against and he had 2 shots, as well as setting up Ryder (8 shots) all night. As for Kovalev playing well, he was on for all 3 of the Islander's goals. So who played better? Habtastic

Yeah AB, you can't complain about Koivu's -1 two games ago and then today ignore the fact that the entire Kovalev line was repeatedly caught up ice in transition last night. In fact you could directly blame that line for the loss if you wanted to talk just about the goals themselves.

I'd like to add that +/- is still a totally misleading stat.

sarge · Member

I can understand why people are upset with Koivu.

He is praised by the entire hockey world for his insperational speech to the team before the game against the Caps.

Then he plays a crap game.

Not good leadership.

If you want to say what has to be done, you had better be the first one doing it!

24 Rings · Guru

plouf wrote:

I'd like to add that +/- is still a totally misleading stat.

How so? Please elaborate.

Andy · Veteran Member

What if you do alot of Penatly Killing and no Power Play, example BEGIN , +/- stat sucks for that.

24 Rings · Guru

Well you don't get a + for a power play goal anyhow. Nor do you get a - for a penalty kill. It's strictly for even strength. I guess Begin does miss out on a lot of even strength time, but his +- would be indicative of how he does with that even strength ice time. If he is a - that means the Habs get scored on when he is on the ice, more than they put the puck the puck in the other teams net. I think it is a great stat and totally underated.

Jonny G · Senior Member

+ / - is the best indicator of even-strength productivity.

24 Rings · Guru

Jonny G wrote:

+ / - is the best indicator of even-strength productivity.

Yeah I would say so. It also shows you don't neglect your defensive responsibilities. OR it shows that you play with amazing line mates (i.e. Mezeros from Ottawa).