Offence...Scoring..Goals....

barry33 · Guru

Offence...Scoring..Goals....

Habtastic · Guru

I wasn't really on board with you in some of your earlier comments about offence Barry, but this summary of your thoughts is bang on. The team is playing well now and getting chances offensively and stopping chances defensively, but they are not capitalizing. Gainey needed a scorer, he tried, he failed, but now it is up to guys who can score to score. Ryder, Zednik, and Kovalev are our main snipers, but Perez, Bulis, Koivu, Higgins, and Bonk have all shown they can score in the past. Souray and Markov can also be added to this list. Some of them have been doing OK lately, but until they all start contributing what we and they know they can, we will end up in 7th or 8th place and will be out in 5 games. Not acceptable. Time to pick it up, les boys!

Habtastic

skov1044 · Member

yes the defense has tighten up but at the expense of the offense

0 even strength goals in 3 games

1 in four

yes the habs had chances in last night games but i felt they didnt really put pressure on tampa until it was 2 -0 with 10 minutes left in the 3rd

-- Edited by skov1044 at 09:25, 2006-03-14

Key Lime · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Howie Meeker used to have a way of stating the obvious. I remember as a kid listening to him on HNIC saying "You gotta put the puck in the net more than they put it in YOUR net". As simple as that sounds, it is painfully obvious that is the Habs problem. Although Montreal is technically ranked 21st in offense/goals scored, they are really closer to about 25th, only mere percentage points ahead of offensive powerhouses like Boston and the NY Islanders. (To put things in perspective the Toronto team that we all like to make fun of is 13th). What is even more telling is the 5 on 5 scoring. Here Montreal is tied for 4 worse with, of all teams, the Penguins (who can thank Syd the Kid for not being worst). So as bad as we think our PP is, it is obvious it has clicked enough to move us up a couple spaces in offence standings. (Ottawa is tops with an average of 3.97 Goals per game as Opposed to Montreal's sizzling 2.84 Average). There is no coincidence that the move up the standings has been directly related to Huet's emergence as a legitimate game stealer. One shudders to think where we would be if we were still relying on an inconsistent Theodore. To be fair, let's give some credit to the coaching staff. Defensively as a team we have tightened up considerably and clearing rebounds better as well as spending less time in our own end. With defensive legends like Carbo and Gainey at the helm you can rest assured that the Canadiens will be responsible defensively. And as long as Huet stays hot, they should at least be in most games. I will take a good defensive team in the playoffs anyday. But that does not mean there is not cause for alarm or concern. Having just spent a couple days with CJ, he reiterated what I am saying. He told me that if guys like Kovalev and Koivu along with Ryder and Ribiero, do not start finding the net, then Montreal will be making a very quick exit against either Carolina or Ottawa. As important as defense is, yoru best players have to play like your best players. And Montreal's have not. Kovalev has 17 goals (6 Power Play) while averaging 20 minutes of ice time a game, Koivu has 14 goals (4 PPG) while averaging 20 minutes of ice time a game. To be successful, this cannot continue to happen. These guys need to step it up. Offense on this team is hard to come by as it is.

Barry, I think there should be concern for the lack of offense. We can't count on our goaltending to keep us under 2 goals every game. Even at that, it's been so brutal recenlty, the Habs offensive can't even accumulate 3 goals per game. Where does that put us? Every game it seems like we're getting a healthy share of good scoring chances but we just can't capitalize. Alarm, concern, whatever you wan't to cal it. The go-to guys need not only to play well, they need to play at the top of their potential if we want to salvage this season.

barry33 · Guru

skov1044 wrote:

yes the defense has tighten up but at the expense of the offense 0 even strength goals in 3 games 1 in four yes the habs had chances in last night games but i felt they didnt really put pressure on tampa until it was 2 -0 with 10 minutes left in the 3rd -- Edited by skov1044 at 09:25, 2006-03-14

Wondetr what Kovalev is saying now? His excuse when CJ got canned was that Julien's system was stifling the offense.

Desi · Senior Member

31 shots on goal last night -- and 25 blocked shots. We are shooting too much from the point because our fast little forwards are moving like big slow ones. True, there were chances last night and Burke played well, stopping a couple that could easily have gone in. But don't you agree that there were too few real scoring chances and too many shots from the point? Not enough cycling down low or on the half-boards. Too much static positioning, especially from our point men and our centers. Markov moves around brilliantly on the point and he was clearly missed out there last night, especially on those foundering power plays. 25 blocked shots tells you a lot about the poor decisions being made by our shooters. Note to Rivet, Souray and Streit -- if there are three guys between you and the net, maybe it would be better to move the puck before shooting or better yet, look to pass.

With our defensive play definitely improving, and shots-for counts rising a little, we're going to get goals and wins. But we will get fewer of them if we don't start skating harder and cycling better to set up open shots in the offensive zone. When we do this and get work to find openings and get open shots, players like Koivu, Ryder, Bulis and Kovalev can bury it. When we don't, they struggle. Right now we're struggling a bit.

But 31 shots -- even if half of them came from the point -- is good shot production. If a couple more has slipped by Burke we'd be crowing about winning a close one against a tough team, rather than grousing about all the things that are wrong with our offense. There's hope here and movement in the right direction I think.

Les Canadiens sont la

barry33 · Guru

Desi wrote:

31 shots on goal last night -- and 25 blocked shots. We are shooting too much from the point because our fast little forwards are moving like big slow ones. True, there were chances last night and Burke played well, stopping a couple that could easily have gone in. But don't you agree that there were too few real scoring chances and too many shots from the point? Not enough cycling down low or on the half-boards. Too much static positioning, especially from our point men and our centers. Markov moves around brilliantly on the point and he was clearly missed out there last night, especially on those foundering power plays. 25 blocked shots tells you a lot about the poor decisions being made by our shooters. Note to Rivet, Souray and Streit -- if there are three guys between you and the net, maybe it would be better to move the puck before shooting or better yet, look to pass. With our defensive play definitely improving, and shots-for counts rising a little, we're going to get goals and wins. But we will get fewer of them if we don't start skating harder and cycling better to set up open shots in the offensive zone. When we do this and get work to find openings and get open shots, players like Koivu, Ryder, Bulis and Kovalev can bury it. When we don't, they struggle. Right now we're struggling a bit. But 31 shots -- even if half of them came from the point -- is good shot production. If a couple more has slipped by Burke we'd be crowing about winning a close one against a tough team, rather than grousing about all the things that are wrong with our offense. There's hope here and movement in the right direction I think. Les Canadiens sont la

Agree with you 200% Desi!!! One problem is the system we are playing. Bob and Guy are still trying to play a 1-4 trap. This worked well in Dallas before the new rules and because they had big strong forwards like Modanno and Arnott. When you play a 1-4 you are unable to get a forecheck going. Our legitimate scoring chances last night were 8. With 31 shots that is way too low. You are right about the cycling. I saw Saks and Kovy have HUGE success at the Olympics because they took the puck down low and created a cycle. Saks has TREMENDOUSLY strong legs for a little guy and he is very capable of creating a strong cycle down low, as are Zednick and Kovalev. I cannot tell you why they are not now. It is nothing to do with the trap Gainey is playing because Finland played a 1-4 trap to death.

So what is the problem? I don;t know. To quote Kovalev "You are the coach..YOU figure it out".

Key Lime · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Desi wrote: 31 shots on goal last night -- and 25 blocked shots. We are shooting too much from the point because our fast little forwards are moving like big slow ones. True, there were chances last night and Burke played well, stopping a couple that could easily have gone in. But don't you agree that there were too few real scoring chances and too many shots from the point? Not enough cycling down low or on the half-boards. Too much static positioning, especially from our point men and our centers. Markov moves around brilliantly on the point and he was clearly missed out there last night, especially on those foundering power plays. 25 blocked shots tells you a lot about the poor decisions being made by our shooters. Note to Rivet, Souray and Streit -- if there are three guys between you and the net, maybe it would be better to move the puck before shooting or better yet, look to pass. With our defensive play definitely improving, and shots-for counts rising a little, we're going to get goals and wins. But we will get fewer of them if we don't start skating harder and cycling better to set up open shots in the offensive zone. When we do this and get work to find openings and get open shots, players like Koivu, Ryder, Bulis and Kovalev can bury it. When we don't, they struggle. Right now we're struggling a bit. But 31 shots -- even if half of them came from the point -- is good shot production. If a couple more has slipped by Burke we'd be crowing about winning a close one against a tough team, rather than grousing about all the things that are wrong with our offense. There's hope here and movement in the right direction I think. Les Canadiens sont la Agree with you 200% Desi!!! One problem is the system we are playing. Bob and Guy are still trying to play a 1-4 trap. This worked well in Dallas before the new rules and because they had big strong forwards like Modanno and Arnott. When you play a 1-4 you are unable to get a forecheck going. Our legitimate scoring chances last night were 8. With 31 shots that is way too low. You are right about the cycling. I saw Saks and Kovy have HUGE success at the Olympics because they took the puck down low and created a cycle. Saks has TREMENDOUSLY strong legs for a little guy and he is very capable of creating a strong cycle down low, as are Zednick and Kovalev. I cannot tell you why they are not now. It is nothing to do with the trap Gainey is playing because Finland played a 1-4 trap to death. So what is the problem? I don;t know. To quote Kovalev "You are the coach..YOU figure it out".

A clear sign that the Habs offensive players are thinking too much is when you see passes that should of been shots and shots that should of been passes...

A simple solution to having a better offense...watch a tape of the Buffalo Sabres and copy that style of offense...pressure, pressure, and more pressure. Forecheck with 2-men in! Sufficate the opposing defense. It's not brain surgery.

barry33 · Guru

A simple solution to having a better offense...watch a tape of the Buffalo Sabres and copy that style of offense...pressure, pressure, and more pressure. Forecheck with 2-men in! Sufficate the opposing defense. It's not brain surgery.

I agree Key Lime. One of our supposed strengths is supposed to be team speed. A 1-4 trap does absolutely zilch to utilize that. A trap is great if you have a team of big and slow footed sloths. They clog up the neutral zone. But guys like Perzhogan, Higgins, Koivu, etc..are not allowed to utilize team speed unless the system is changed.

Muller93 · Guru

barry33 wrote:

To be successful, this cannot continue to happen. These guys need to step it up. Offense on this team is hard to come by as it is.

They are playing with one hand tied behind their backs. No offensive support from Ribeiro really. Teams just leave him alone to fly around doing nothing.

Long story short...Barry you are correct, this team needed to make a trade for offensive help. But Gainey knows that even if this team makes the playoffs, they are exiting first or second round anyway( even if they got Bertuzzi).

Gainey will not sign Ribby next year( thank god, it will be the end of the nonsense), he will dump Bonk, he will trade Zednik and use the cap space to land a top centerman and a top winger.

Next year we will all see the genuis that is Gainey. Mark my words( I have so iI can post this exact message next year).

barry33 · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

barry33 wrote: To be successful, this cannot continue to happen. These guys need to step it up. Offense on this team is hard to come by as it is. They are playing with one hand tied behind their backs. No offensive support from Ribeiro really. Teams just leave him alone to fly around doing nothing. Long story short...Barry you are correct, this team needed to make a trade for offensive help. But Gainey knows that even if this team makes the playoffs, they are exiting first or second round anyway( even if they got Bertuzzi). Gainey will not sign Ribby next year( thank god, it will be the end of the nonsense), he will dump Bonk, he will trade Zednik and use the cap space to land a top centerman and a top winger. Next year we will all see the genuis that is Gainey. Mark my words( I have so iI can post this exact message next year).

Mulsey- As CJ said to me on the weekend, he believes that both Gainey and Carbo are both still adjusting to the "new NHL". That is not a put down. Larry Robinson had the same problem in Jersey and he just could not do it. Becuase Gainey had huge success in Dallas in a different era (and yes the difference between the NHL then and now..is night and day) does not make him a rubber stamp to do the same in Montreal. But he is still a smart guy and I am with you..he will make something of this team.

But as fans we need to at least hope that Bob stops playing this STUPID 1-4 trap!! Turn 'em loose Bob. I know we do not have much scoring but we have SPEED and you and carbo are suffocating it. Go to a 2-3 or even a 3-2 and use speed to forecheck the hell out of the other teams and let the chips fall where they may. What do we have to lose? I know what Gainey is thinking. Our defense is slow and he wants to leave as many forwards back (thus the 1-4 trap) to help. This has had the desired effect. Less Goals against. But now we are getting NO scoring chances. Creative guys like Kovalev and Koivu are being stifled because they are busy plugging up the neautral zone..this equals no goals. It also results in more penalties because we are doing more clutching and grabbing (again, this was allowed in Dallas Bob but not now).

NEWFIEHABSFAN · Senior Member

barry, i totally agree with all your comments! but, the real question is " does it hurt being the smartest hockey mind on this board?"

Muller93 · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Muller93 wrote: barry33 wrote: To be successful, this cannot continue to happen. These guys need to step it up. Offense on this team is hard to come by as it is. They are playing with one hand tied behind their backs. No offensive support from Ribeiro really. Teams just leave him alone to fly around doing nothing. Long story short...Barry you are correct, this team needed to make a trade for offensive help. But Gainey knows that even if this team makes the playoffs, they are exiting first or second round anyway( even if they got Bertuzzi). Gainey will not sign Ribby next year( thank god, it will be the end of the nonsense), he will dump Bonk, he will trade Zednik and use the cap space to land a top centerman and a top winger. Next year we will all see the genuis that is Gainey. Mark my words( I have so iI can post this exact message next year). Mulsey- As CJ said to me on the weekend, he believes that both Gainey and Carbo are both still adjusting to the "new NHL". That is not a put down. Larry Robinson had the same problem in Jersey and he just could not do it. Becuase Gainey had huge success in Dallas in a different era (and yes the difference between the NHL then and now..is night and day) does not make him a rubber stamp to do the same in Montreal. But he is still a smart guy and I am with you..he will make something of this team. But as fans we need to at least hope that Bob stops playing this STUPID 1-4 trap!! Turn 'em loose Bob. I know we do not have much scoring but we have SPEED and you and carbo are suffocating it. Go to a 2-3 or even a 3-2 and use speed to forecheck the hell out of the other teams and let the chips fall where they may. What do we have to lose? I know what Gainey is thinking. Our defense is slow and he wants to leave as many forwards back (thus the 1-4 trap) to help. This has had the desired effect. Less Goals against. But now we are getting NO scoring chances. Creative guys like Kovalev and Koivu are being stifled because they are busy plugging up the neautral zone..this equals no goals. It also results in more penalties because we are doing more clutching and grabbing (again, this was allowed in Dallas Bob but not now).

Well for one, Gainey was one of the key figures in pushing many of the rule changes through. He was on one of the instumental commitees. So I don't think he is adjusting to the new league...he helped invent it.

Number two, as I stated in the last post, we don't have the offensive guns to play anything other than the trap( all we have is Kovalev and Koivu who is not even a true offensive guy). Maybe Ryder, but he is only effective on an offensive minded team.

Gainey can't turn them loose otherwise they will return to the horrid record of the past. At least with this new style the record is what...7-3-2....something like that. Might get them into the playoffs to give guys like Plek, Komi, Higgins, Ryder, Perez some playoff experience...to build for the future.

wright · Veteran Member

barry33 wrote:

Muller93 wrote: barry33 wrote: To be successful, this cannot continue to happen. These guys need to step it up. Offense on this team is hard to come by as it is. They are playing with one hand tied behind their backs. No offensive support from Ribeiro really. Teams just leave him alone to fly around doing nothing. Long story short...Barry you are correct, this team needed to make a trade for offensive help. But Gainey knows that even if this team makes the playoffs, they are exiting first or second round anyway( even if they got Bertuzzi). Gainey will not sign Ribby next year( thank god, it will be the end of the nonsense), he will dump Bonk, he will trade Zednik and use the cap space to land a top centerman and a top winger. Next year we will all see the genuis that is Gainey. Mark my words( I have so iI can post this exact message next year). Mulsey- As CJ said to me on the weekend, he believes that both Gainey and Carbo are both still adjusting to the "new NHL". That is not a put down. Larry Robinson had the same problem in Jersey and he just could not do it. Becuase Gainey had huge success in Dallas in a different era (and yes the difference between the NHL then and now..is night and day) does not make him a rubber stamp to do the same in Montreal. But he is still a smart guy and I am with you..he will make something of this team. But as fans we need to at least hope that Bob stops playing this STUPID 1-4 trap!! Turn 'em loose Bob. I know we do not have much scoring but we have SPEED and you and carbo are suffocating it. Go to a 2-3 or even a 3-2 and use speed to forecheck the hell out of the other teams and let the chips fall where they may. What do we have to lose? I know what Gainey is thinking. Our defense is slow and he wants to leave as many forwards back (thus the 1-4 trap) to help. This has had the desired effect. Less Goals against. But now we are getting NO scoring chances. Creative guys like Kovalev and Koivu are being stifled because they are busy plugging up the neautral zone..this equals no goals. It also results in more penalties because we are doing more clutching and grabbing (again, this was allowed in Dallas Bob but not now).

Would like to see the Habs emulate the Sabre's style of run and gun style of play. Ruff turns them loose lets them use their greatest asset, which is team speed, and relentless forechecking. they recognize that if they make a mistake and fall victim to the odd man rush, great goaltending will bail them out. Certainly at this juncture Huet has proven that he can bail the habs out of a lot of defensive mistakes. The greatest strength of the Habs forwards is their speed, so unleash them and let them utilize it.

barry33 · Guru

wright wrote:

barry33 wrote: Muller93 wrote: barry33 wrote: To be successful, this cannot continue to happen. These guys need to step it up. Offense on this team is hard to come by as it is. They are playing with one hand tied behind their backs. No offensive support from Ribeiro really. Teams just leave him alone to fly around doing nothing. Long story short...Barry you are correct, this team needed to make a trade for offensive help. But Gainey knows that even if this team makes the playoffs, they are exiting first or second round anyway( even if they got Bertuzzi). Gainey will not sign Ribby next year( thank god, it will be the end of the nonsense), he will dump Bonk, he will trade Zednik and use the cap space to land a top centerman and a top winger. Next year we will all see the genuis that is Gainey. Mark my words( I have so iI can post this exact message next year). Mulsey- As CJ said to me on the weekend, he believes that both Gainey and Carbo are both still adjusting to the "new NHL". That is not a put down. Larry Robinson had the same problem in Jersey and he just could not do it. Becuase Gainey had huge success in Dallas in a different era (and yes the difference between the NHL then and now..is night and day) does not make him a rubber stamp to do the same in Montreal. But he is still a smart guy and I am with you..he will make something of this team. But as fans we need to at least hope that Bob stops playing this STUPID 1-4 trap!! Turn 'em loose Bob. I know we do not have much scoring but we have SPEED and you and carbo are suffocating it. Go to a 2-3 or even a 3-2 and use speed to forecheck the hell out of the other teams and let the chips fall where they may. What do we have to lose? I know what Gainey is thinking. Our defense is slow and he wants to leave as many forwards back (thus the 1-4 trap) to help. This has had the desired effect. Less Goals against. But now we are getting NO scoring chances. Creative guys like Kovalev and Koivu are being stifled because they are busy plugging up the neautral zone..this equals no goals. It also results in more penalties because we are doing more clutching and grabbing (again, this was allowed in Dallas Bob but not now). Would like to see the Habs emulate the Sabre's style of run and gun style of play. Ruff turns them loose lets them use their greatest asset, which is team speed, and relentless forechecking. they recognize that if they make a mistake and fall victim to the odd man rush, great goaltending will bail them out. Certainly at this juncture Huet has proven that he can bail the habs out of a lot of defensive mistakes. The greatest strength of the Habs forwards is their speed, so unleash them and let them utilize it.

Wright- actuallY I agree with you 50% and Muller 50%. In reality, does Buffalo have more talent than Montreal does? I don't think so. Goaltending is comparable. Defence about the same. And Buffalo does not have any more big guns up front than Montreal does. Yet they play a run n gun and do it well. But Mullers point is well taken too that Gainey feels that this style is the best he can do with what he has. But tghe question is, will one big name scoring forward make that much of a difference? If Gainey lands this mystery player is that enough for him to say "Ok, I can go to a different style of play now"? How much impact can one scorer have on a whole team? Stay tuned, time will tell. Like many opinions expressed here, I feel that there is a bit of truth in what everyone has to say.

Habtastic · Guru

The difference with Montreal and Buffalo is experience. Ruff has been coaching longer. The players have been there longer, so have played together more. That team has gone through the dumps together and has risen up, so they have more character. I think Gainey wants these youngsters to learn their D and then he can work on transition and forecheck. Everyone is still getting used to each other and I believe there is a lot of trust factor that goes into allowing a strong forecheck yet still be responsible defensively. And Wright, you are right, Gainey wants them in the playoffs and this is the best way right now.

Habtastic

plouf · Guru

You know one thing I really miss about the CJ era was that great cycling system the team was using early in the season. That was responsible for a lot of offense. You have to wonder if now we have good goaltending and guys like Souray are vastly improved if we couldn't go with a more offensive system. I'm with you there.

That said, hey we've been way over 2.84 GPG or whatever it is over the last 20 games, so things are looking up even if the last three games we've been shut down. We're getting our chances, and you have to think Ryder, Zednik and/or Koivu will get it together on the finishing. The first two especially live to score goals, so I gotta believe.

Let's have some patience with an improving team. We've survived the meltdown of our best player and lived to tell about it. And win some games while laying the groundwork.

-- Edited by plouf at 21:49, 2006-03-14

AB Habman · Guru

Muller93 wrote:
have the offensive guns to play anything other than the trap( all we have is Kovalev and Koivu who is not even a true offensive guy)..

Are you now saying that Koivu is not an offensive guy?

Why then so defensive about him when we say he isn't producing?

Are you just saying this now to justify another underproductive season?

Muller, you're posts are becoming inconsistent.

Muller93 · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

Muller93 wrote: have the offensive guns to play anything other than the trap( all we have is Kovalev and Koivu who is not even a true offensive guy)..

Are you now saying that Koivu is not an offensive guy?
Why then so defensive about him when we say he isn't producing?
Are you just saying this now to justify another underproductive season?
Muller, you're posts are becoming inconsistent.

Whatever. Only inconsistent to those who don't actually read the posts. But that is not news to me when it comes to you AB.

I have always proclaimed Koivu is more an all around guy used in all situations. You seem to think that all there is to a player is how many points he scores...Anyway I said I would innore these nonsense posts. I should follow through on that promise. Au revoir