Kostitsyn

Key Lime · Guru

Kostitsyn

Zulrath · Senior Member

I really hope Kostitsyn proves all the other clubs that overlooked him in the draft that he is the real deal.

Key Lime · Guru

Zulrath wrote:

I really hope Kostitsyn proves all the other clubs that overlooked him in the draft that he is the real deal.

Like I said he has shown flashes with his limited playing time with the Habs. They seem to be sheltering him by having him play every game in Hamilton. He hasn't been tearing it up in the AHL with 27 pts in 41 games but I'm convinced he's the type of player who would excel playing with higher skilled players.

wright · Veteran Member

Key Lime wrote:

He just turned 21, he's a 1st round choice (10th overall) in the 2003 NHL Entry Draft, 6'0" / 200 lbs. He's showed flashes of magic in two games in particular this year. He seems very promising. This is what I think of regularly lately, our future. I don't want to sound over positive but we have some really promising players: Bulis, Plekanec, Perezhogin, Coté, Kostitsyn, Higgins, Latendresse, Chipchura. (and Carey Price hopefully). The only problem is that we never get a crack at the top 2 prospects. That's where you really get a chance at acquiring a superstar. However, in the players I mentioned, one or 2 may really surprise us.

At the risk of being attacked, I hope your right in your assesment of the young players the Habs have, however it is highly debatable as to whether any of the players you mentioned will develop into an impact player, something this team needs. Bulis is having a nice season, but at 28 this may be about as good as it gets, nothing wrong with that but again not an impact player. higgins is young but he does not appear to have the soft hands of a goal scorer, and like Chipchura may not be much more than a third line player. For sure there could be some strong upside in Plekanec,Perhizoghen,Kostitsyn. However a lot of people thought the same for Hossa,Balej,and Ward, not surprisingly all three of those kids with a bright future are gone and only Ward is having moderate success at this point in time.

No question the drafting looks a little better these days, but the Canadiens really need to land a proven goal scorer and let the kids develop and fill in the depth of the team, not sure any of the young players will become that next big goal scorer.

Key Lime · Guru

At the risk of being attacked, I hope your right in your assesment of the young players the Habs have, however it is highly debatable as to whether any of the players you mentioned will develop into an impact player, something this team needs. Bulis is having a nice season, but at 28 this may be about as good as it gets, nothing wrong with that but again not an impact player. higgins is young but he does not appear to have the soft hands of a goal scorer, and like Chipchura may not be much more than a third line player. For sure there could be some strong upside in Plekanec,Perhizoghen,Kostitsyn. However a lot of people thought the same for Hossa,Balej,and Ward, not surprisingly all three of those kids with a bright future are gone and only Ward is having moderate success at this point in time. No question the drafting looks a little better these days, but the Canadiens really need to land a proven goal scorer and let the kids develop and fill in the depth of the team, not sure any of the young players will become that next big goal scorer.

You are correct about the next big goal scorer. I don't think that any of these players can consitently be a big time goal scorer. No doubt we desperately need one; however, the point I was leaning on is that on a team you need 24 players and the players I listed seem promising to replace the Bonks, Zeds etc of this world.

Wouldn't it be nice though if we can DRAFT a big goal scorer. Tough when you don't have the top draft pics.

Caper_hab_fan · Veteran Member

Actually i remember watching that draft, and Kostitsyn would have gone within the first 5 but most teams were worried cause he took a seizure one time and they thought he might of had a medical problem...but the habs medical staff checked this guy out and picked him i believe it was 10th overall. So i believe that this kid should be up playing with the habs more then Perezhogin....and i say that cause Perezhogin is on a line with Kovy and Ribs.....i think Kostitsyn would play better with these 2 players....what do you guys think?

Nil d · Guru

wright wrote:

At the risk of being attacked, I hope your right in your assesment of the young players the Habs have, however it is highly debatable as to whether any of the players you mentioned will develop into an impact player, something this team needs. Bulis is having a nice season, but at 28 this may be about as good as it gets, nothing wrong with that but again not an impact player. higgins is young but he does not appear to have the soft hands of a goal scorer, and like Chipchura may not be much more than a third line player. For sure there could be some strong upside in Plekanec,Perhizoghen,Kostitsyn. However a lot of people thought the same for Hossa,Balej,and Ward, not surprisingly all three of those kids with a bright future are gone and only Ward is having moderate success at this point in time. No question the drafting looks a little better these days, but the Canadiens really need to land a proven goal scorer and let the kids develop and fill in the depth of the team, not sure any of the young players will become that next big goal scorer.

I agree, wright. The three highlighted above are the core of the future, I think/hope, but time will tell if they become Jagrs or Bonks. They all have wheels, which is a good start. I also agree about Bulis; he is good, but is likely at his peak. He is part of the present, and could be a great mentor for these kids in a couple of years, as long as he hasn't crested.

AB Habman · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

He just turned 21, he's a 1st round choice (10th overall) in the 2003 NHL Entry Draft, 6'0" / 200 lbs. He's showed flashes of magic in two games in particular this year. He seems very promising. This is what I think of regularly lately, our future. I don't want to sound over positive but we have some really promising players: Bulis, Plekanec, Perezhogin, Coté, Kostitsyn, Higgins, Latendresse, Chipchura. (and Carey Price hopefully). The only problem is that we never get a crack at the top 2 prospects. That's where you really get a chance at acquiring a superstar. However, in the players I mentioned, one or 2 may really surprise us.

In a way, it is a good thing that we don't have a quick developing talent like Phaneuf, Ovechkin, Eric Staal or Crosby!

With the two teer system Gainey is producing with his three big signings! we couldn't sign one of these so called super rookies! He would have to lose the Kostitsyns, Higgins, Plecs and Chipchura to do it! You see what I'm getting at, we may end up like the Pens! With Gonchar, LecClair, Recchi, Fleury and Crosby at the top, then at the bottom a bunch of rookies that would never make anyones elses roster! Like our top three not producing according to their pay, the same goes for LeClair, Recchi and Gonchar who have also under produced!

What would happen for example if Kostitsyn ended up like Ovechkin, Wow, what would Gainey do now in a couple or few years? With the money he's paying his so called producers, Kostitsyn would demand 12 mil per!

Catch my drift, it'll be hard enough keeping our own prospects as mentioned without having to throw in a Staal type player! With Carolina being a well managed team, they at least can sign him and make him their top payed player which of course he should be! That is why teams like Carolina are in better shape than us! They are not wasting away money on three older has beens but on young players that will grow as a nucleous!

Key Lime · Guru

AB,

If I assume that "has beens" simply means players past their primes, then would you consider Koivu, Kovy, and Zeds as "has beens"? Seriously, looking at it from another angle, they just may be. They are slightly past their prime, eventhough they can still be effective. Never thought of it that way.

Habtastic · Guru

Caper_hab_fan wrote:

Actually i remember watching that draft, and Kostitsyn would have gone within the first 5 but most teams were worried cause he took a seizure one time and they thought he might of had a medical problem...but the habs medical staff checked this guy out and picked him i believe it was 10th overall. So i believe that this kid should be up playing with the habs more then Perezhogin....and i say that cause Perezhogin is on a line with Kovy and Ribs.....i think Kostitsyn would play better with these 2 players....what do you guys think?

You nailed it. Kost was rated the second best talent in that draft, but the seizures dropped him down to 10th. Him and Perez are considered top talent, a shade under superstars-to-be by scouting services. Both of them have struggled with English and that has slowed development. Perez also lost a year of NA hockey from his suspension and might have a menatl block from it. Euro players often take longer to develop because of language, re-location, and playing style. Patience is key, but I have no worries about their future success.

And AB, I would love to have the problem of having an Ovechkin or Crosby on my team. Please, give me a whole team of that kind of problem! :)

Habtastic

AB Habman · Guru

Habtastic wrote:

Caper_hab_fan wrote: Actually i remember watching that draft, and Kostitsyn would have gone within the first 5 but most teams were worried cause he took a seizure one time and they thought he might of had a medical problem...but the habs medical staff checked this guy out and picked him i believe it was 10th overall. So i believe that this kid should be up playing with the habs more then Perezhogin....and i say that cause Perezhogin is on a line with Kovy and Ribs.....i think Kostitsyn would play better with these 2 players....what do you guys think? You nailed it. Kost was rated the second best talent in that draft, but the seizures dropped him down to 10th. Him and Perez are considered top talent, a shade under superstars-to-be by scouting services. Both of them have struggled with English and that has slowed development. Perez also lost a year of NA hockey from his suspension and might have a menatl block from it. Euro players often take longer to develop because of language, re-location, and playing style. Patience is key, but I have no worries about their future success. And AB, I would love to have the problem of having an Ovechkin or Crosby on my team. Please, give me a whole team of that kind of problem! :) Habtastic

I would too but how would we build around them? Same as why Caps and Pens won't make the playoffs because they have too much money allocated to underacheivers!

Ando · Guru

Jeff Carter was chosen just after Kostitsyn in the draft!

...such 'off the board' picks cost us EXACTLY what we have all been waiting for (a big and gifted right-handed shooting centreman with unquestionable #1 top-line potential)!

And-o is sick-and-tired of surprise draft choices...especially when a blue-chip prospect is sitting right square in front of the podium!!!

...anyone recall the gasp when Gainey selected Carey Price with the 5th overall pick!!!??? I'm not saying that either kid is...or might be...a bust but, when a top notch prospect is waiting, taking chances is just plain stupid!!!

Jeff Carter was the sure thing!!!

AB Habman · Guru

Ando wrote:

Jeff Carter was chosen just after Kostitsyn in the draft! ...such 'off the board' picks cost us EXACTLY what we have all been waiting for (a big and gifted right-handed shooting centreman with unquestionable #1 top-line potential)! And-o is sick-and-tired of surprise draft choices...especially when a blue-chip prospect is sitting right square in front of the podium!!! ...anyone recall the gasp when Gainey selected Carey Price with the 5th overall pick!!!??? I'm not saying that either kid is...or might be...a bust but, when a top notch prospect is waiting, taking chances is just plain stupid!!! Jeff Carter was the sure thing!!!

Also with a player like Jeff Carter, I would have to ask, does Gainey have the same pressure to over pay Saks?

Muller93 · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

does Gainey have the same pressure to over pay Saks?

For the last time...Sakes was not overpaid! He is paid market value. It may be a high price tag but Gainey did not OVER PAY. Cripes, I know 30 teams in the NHL who would have paid him either 4.5 mil or even 5mil.

So I cannot agree with the subliminal messages I hear on this board that Gainey Over paid. He just paid what the market going rate was.

No way the habs are going to pry a superstar like Ovechkin, etc away, and even if they did you are looking at 7 -8 mil for a guy like that( but no team will let a rare commodity like that go anyhow).

So then you start looking at guys whom you might be able to get REALISTICALLY to replace Koivu's shoes: Let's see....ummmm:

1 Savard--no thanks, he is also small and plays that way. Plus look at his career...that's right...Savard who?

2 Jokinen--I like this guy, but again, he is 27 years old and his highest point production in his career was 65 points. AND worse still, he plays weak in his own end---he is no Koivu. But I would grab him as a second line center though.

Who else REALISTICALLY would the habs have been able to replace Koivu with huh? Trust me Gainey paid fair market value. If he had let him go( and trust me, 30 teams would have grabbed him), we would have replaced him with a weaker player or went with Ribs as our first line guy. God help us with that option

wright · Veteran Member

AB Habman wrote:

Key Lime wrote: He just turned 21, he's a 1st round choice (10th overall) in the 2003 NHL Entry Draft, 6'0" / 200 lbs. He's showed flashes of magic in two games in particular this year. He seems very promising. This is what I think of regularly lately, our future. I don't want to sound over positive but we have some really promising players: Bulis, Plekanec, Perezhogin, Coté, Kostitsyn, Higgins, Latendresse, Chipchura. (and Carey Price hopefully). The only problem is that we never get a crack at the top 2 prospects. That's where you really get a chance at acquiring a superstar. However, in the players I mentioned, one or 2 may really surprise us. In a way, it is a good thing that we don't have a quick developing talent like Phaneuf, Ovechkin, Eric Staal or Crosby! With the two teer system Gainey is producing with his three big signings! we couldn't sign one of these so called super rookies! He would have to lose the Kostitsyns, Higgins, Plecs and Chipchura to do it! You see what I'm getting at, we may end up like the Pens! With Gonchar, LecClair, Recchi, Fleury and Crosby at the top, then at the bottom a bunch of rookies that would never make anyones elses roster! Like our top three not producing according to their pay, the same goes for LeClair, Recchi and Gonchar who have also under produced! What would happen for example if Kostitsyn ended up like Ovechkin, Wow, what would Gainey do now in a couple or few years? With the money he's paying his so called producers, Kostitsyn would demand 12 mil per! Catch my drift, it'll be hard enough keeping our own prospects as mentioned without having to throw in a Staal type player! With Carolina being a well managed team, they at least can sign him and make him their top payed player which of course he should be! That is why teams like Carolina are in better shape than us! They are not wasting away money on three older has beens but on young players that will grow as a nucleous!

I think that you have cherry picked Carolina as an example of a well managed team with an astute gm who manages the teams finances well, to an extent Carolina,Buffalo,New Jersey do fall into that category. However, the vast majority of teams if you look at their payroll breakdown have a disportionate of their payroll allocated to their perceived top four franchise players. In that regard Montreal is no different than Boston,Dallas,Detroit,Atlanta etc etc.

The Habs total payroll is in the middle of the pack, they do have salary cap room for next season. It certainly was easier for Carolina to have a low level payroll, they had a brutal season in '04 and missed the playoffs. Due to poor attendance and real questions about the teams survivability in that market they had no choice but to impose a very tight budget. They decided to pass on Ron Francis contract (and why wouldn't they) and if their financial situation was different they probably would have signed O'Neil to a large contract, and overpaid the way you feel the Canadiens did for Koviu.

Circumstances dictated Carolina's decision on payroll, not so much a visionary perspective. Buffalo had similar circumstances (in some respects). Under the new CBA, Gainey still has the hammer with regard to salary over the young kids such as Ryder,Higgins etc. That circumstance won't change for another three or four years, and by then Koviu,Kovalev,Theodore's contracts will be done anyway.

If you want to gamble and not pay your veteran players top dollar you had better be assured that you have elite level goaltending to bail out your young marginally talented team. Carolina and Buffalo have been fortunate in that regard. Without top teir goaltending they would be bottom feeders again this year. Even the Rangers that gutted payroll still have a tremendous amount of money allocated to their top teir players, Jagr, Nylander,Kasperitis,Ruchinsky. Montreal is no different. At the start of the season one would have thought Theodore would have a quality season, Kovalev would have more than 14 goals, and Koviu would have been more productive, so allocating the type of salary to those players made sense.

If one of the Habs young players does develop into a Staal type the Canadiens have the room to pay him, Gainey has not mismanaged the club's finances.

AB Habman · Guru

wright wrote:

AB Habman wrote: Key Lime wrote: He just turned 21, he's a 1st round choice (10th overall) in the 2003 NHL Entry Draft, 6'0" / 200 lbs. He's showed flashes of magic in two games in particular this year. He seems very promising. This is what I think of regularly lately, our future. I don't want to sound over positive but we have some really promising players: Bulis, Plekanec, Perezhogin, Coté, Kostitsyn, Higgins, Latendresse, Chipchura. (and Carey Price hopefully). The only problem is that we never get a crack at the top 2 prospects. That's where you really get a chance at acquiring a superstar. However, in the players I mentioned, one or 2 may really surprise us. In a way, it is a good thing that we don't have a quick developing talent like Phaneuf, Ovechkin, Eric Staal or Crosby! With the two teer system Gainey is producing with his three big signings! we couldn't sign one of these so called super rookies! He would have to lose the Kostitsyns, Higgins, Plecs and Chipchura to do it! You see what I'm getting at, we may end up like the Pens! With Gonchar, LecClair, Recchi, Fleury and Crosby at the top, then at the bottom a bunch of rookies that would never make anyones elses roster! Like our top three not producing according to their pay, the same goes for LeClair, Recchi and Gonchar who have also under produced! What would happen for example if Kostitsyn ended up like Ovechkin, Wow, what would Gainey do now in a couple or few years? With the money he's paying his so called producers, Kostitsyn would demand 12 mil per! Catch my drift, it'll be hard enough keeping our own prospects as mentioned without having to throw in a Staal type player! With Carolina being a well managed team, they at least can sign him and make him their top payed player which of course he should be! That is why teams like Carolina are in better shape than us! They are not wasting away money on three older has beens but on young players that will grow as a nucleous! I think that you have cherry picked Carolina as an example of a well managed team with an astute gm who manages the teams finances well, to an extent Carolina,Buffalo,New Jersey do fall into that category. However, the vast majority of teams if you look at their payroll breakdown have a disportionate of their payroll allocated to their perceived top four franchise players. In that regard Montreal is no different than Boston,Dallas,Detroit,Atlanta etc etc. The Habs total payroll is in the middle of the pack, they do have salary cap room for next season. It certainly was easier for Carolina to have a low level payroll, they had a brutal season in '04 and missed the playoffs. Due to poor attendance and real questions about the teams survivability in that market they had no choice but to impose a very tight budget. They decided to pass on Ron Francis contract (and why wouldn't they) and if their financial situation was different they probably would have signed O'Neil to a large contract, and overpaid the way you feel the Canadiens did for Koviu. Circumstances dictated Carolina's decision on payroll, not so much a visionary perspective. Buffalo had similar circumstances (in some respects). Under the new CBA, Gainey still has the hammer with regard to salary over the young kids such as Ryder,Higgins etc. That circumstance won't change for another three or four years, and by then Koviu,Kovalev,Theodore's contracts will be done anyway. If you want to gamble and not pay your veteran players top dollar you had better be assured that you have elite level goaltending to bail out your young marginally talented team. Carolina and Buffalo have been fortunate in that regard. Without top teir goaltending they would be bottom feeders again this year. Even the Rangers that gutted payroll still have a tremendous amount of money allocated to their top teir players, Jagr, Nylander,Kasperitis,Ruchinsky. Montreal is no different. At the start of the season one would have thought Theodore would have a quality season, Kovalev would have more than 14 goals, and Koviu would have been more productive, so allocating the type of salary to those players made sense. If one of the Habs young players does develop into a Staal type the Canadiens have the room to pay him, Gainey has not mismanaged the club's finances.

Kudos to Jim Rutherford for having the balls to pass up on O'neil and Francis! Players that were on a definate decline in production! Now he has set the table with good young talent! He could of easily signed Francis to a huge contract as a sentiment for his leadership but realizes that sentiments don't win Cups!

wright · Veteran Member

My feeling which I tried to convey in my earlier post was that Rutherford would have signed Francis and O'Neil if Carolina's financial circumstances were different. Their payroll was so constricted he had to pass on those guys. It's a lot easier to have "guts" about p[assing on veteran star players when you are in the middle of nowhere in the hockey world, and your team was so lousy the year before and expectations are so low coming into the new season.

plouf · Guru

wright wrote:

My feeling which I tried to convey in my earlier post was that Rutherford would have signed Francis and O'Neil if Carolina's financial circumstances were different. Their payroll was so constricted he had to pass on those guys. It's a lot easier to have "guts" about p[assing on veteran star players when you are in the middle of nowhere in the hockey world, and your team was so lousy the year before and expectations are so low coming into the new season.

Great posts, wright. It's easy to make judgements in hindsight, but when you look back at the circumstances of how a team like Carolina developed, it's partly circumstance. And Rutherford, well he's a good GM, but he's made his fair share of mistakes too. It's not like Hartford/Carolina has been a dominant team over the last decade, or however long he's been there (maybe longer?). If Rutherford was a genius, what happened last year?