Waited a while for effect...

Muller93 · Guru

Waited a while for effect...

Nil d · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

But, did any of you watch the game on TSN? Catch Koivu clips throughout the game? If you did, you would see how much this guy brings to the table. Few team leading scorers hit, grind and play defense that way. He is as much a point producer as he is a grinder. AWSOME. Or in McGuire's words---a monster. But for those of you with little perspective...he only had one point I think, so he is barely distinquishable from Ribeiro... I also thought Ribeiro played with a little grit against philly. Ryder just continues to produce no matter what( can't figure out why some posters even question that one). I think Buffalo will be a good test to see if the tides have turned.

Well put, Muller. I was gong to post something about that today, but didn't have the strength for another Koivu bashing/defending battle (plus using Pierre McGuire as my backup was making me queasy). I'll let you take this one.

Ando · Guru

Ah geez Mull...or is that Mule???...don't start with the 'Saint Saku' crap again!

Clearly Saku is enjoying a mutually beneficial relationship with his new linemates, which is really helping out the team as a whole - let's just leave it there for now and hope that this success continues on a nightly basis!

...And-o suggests that the bigger 'win' right now would be to find someone to pivot between Kovalev and Zednik, which would pretty much make Saku, Ryder and Higgins the best second line in the game PERIOD

...just think of the positive inner competitions that would arise between guys like Perezhogin, Bulis, Kostitsyn, Latendresse, etc...for a spot of the third line. Now THAT is the makings of a great team!!!

salted_one · Veteran Member

Ando wrote:

Ah geez Mull...or is that Mule???...don't start with the 'Saint Saku' crap again! Clearly Saku is enjoying a mutually beneficial relationship with his new linemates, which is really helping out the team as a whole - let's just leave it there for now and hope that this success continues on a nightly basis! ...And-o suggests that the bigger 'win' right now would be to find someone to pivot between Kovalev and Zednik, which would pretty much make Saku, Ryder and Higgins the best second line in the game PERIOD ...just think of the positive inner competitions that would arise between guys like Perezhogin, Bulis, Kostitsyn, Latendresse, etc...for a spot of the third line. Now THAT is the makings of a great team!!!

...you would willingly put Zednik on the first line...? but from the games i watch saks brings a lot to the habs quite often but after going down 6-1 it would be hard for anyone to have anything left. now that theo isn't in net the offence actually has a chance to strike first with out having their hearts ripped out by being down 5 nothing in the first. a lot of those losses has a lot to do with the domino effect first the goalie drops then the rest of the team but when there is actually a chance to win koivu is the first one i see trying to make the big plays and seems to have the biggest reactions when things go right or wrong. but thats just my oppinion.

24 Rings · Guru

Nil d wrote:

I was gong to post something about that today, but didn't have the strength for another Koivu bashing/defending battle (plus using Pierre McGuire as my backup was making me queasy). I'll let you take this one.

I love how McGuire has a soft spot for the Habs (and Koivu). You could tell he was enjoying watching them play well and winning.

Muller93 · Guru

Ando wrote:

Ah geez Mull...or is that Mule???...don't start with the 'Saint Saku' crap again!

Hmmmm. Clearly my post was praising a great effort on Koivu's part. And-o's response is another example of a very poor Hab's fan.

Sorry And-o, but if you did actually watch the game, you would have sucked it up even for one post and simply state fact...Koivu had a great all around game. Easily the best player on the ice even with the shutout and Ryder's three goal performance. Instead you chose to walk right into my post and sound as one track minded as I figured. It's like listening to a spoiled kid that didn't get his way. Good lord man, I praise a great game and effort by a great hab...and you call me a mule? uhhh OK

So I'm sorry you are unable to shed your frustrations over... whatever it is your frustrated about and just see the facts for one brief moment.

Key Lime · Guru

Obviously the Koivu bashers never laced on skates and played competive hockey. You are entitled to your own opinions but you sound ignorant. Sorry for the blunt words but they're well-deserved

Nil d · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

Ando wrote: Ah geez Mull...or is that Mule???...don't start with the 'Saint Saku' crap again! Hmmmm. Clearly my post was praising a great effort on Koivu's part. And-o's response is another example of a very poor Hab's fan. Sorry And-o, but if you did actually watch the game, you would have sucked it up even for one post and simply state fact...Koivu had a great all around game. Easily the best player on the ice even with the shutout and Ryder's three goal performance. Instead you chose to walk right into my post and sound as one track minded as I figured. It's like listening to a spoiled kid that didn't get his way. Good lord man, I praise a great game and effort by a great hab...and you call me a mule? uhhh OK So I'm sorry you are unable to shed your frustrations over... whatever it is your frustrated about and just see the facts for one brief moment.

See why I'm letting you handle this one (not that you need my help!)?

Ando · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

...Koivu had a great all around game...

...as AB already stated (like it matters though)...THAT is the problem (A...as in one single game...non-consistent...spotty...it's not an insult...just a fact)!

If you would care to read my original post again however...my points were not the least bit insulting to Saku Koivu...not one single bit!!!

In fact, I stand by the line of Saku, Higs and the Newf as potentially sticking for a loooonnnng time....that line could even land Saku a new deal with the Habs!

Is that not a good thing???

...and "the big picture" still remains...we still need a centreman to anchor the top line with Kovy and Zednik!

Where the hell was the slam in that???

plouf · Guru

Tell you what And-o, just to make you happy I'll promise to refer to Saku's line as the second line from now on. And then Kovalev and Ribeiro can be on the "first line". We won't even look at the stats or anything. Ok? Then we can both be happy.

Muller93 · Guru

Ando wrote:

Ah geez Mull...or is that Mule???...don't start with the 'Saint Saku' crap again! Clearly Saku is enjoying a mutually beneficial relationship with his new linemates, which is really helping out the team as a whole - let's just leave it there for now and hope that this success continues on a nightly basis! ...And-o suggests that the bigger 'win' right now would be to find someone to pivot between Kovalev and Zednik, which would pretty much make Saku, Ryder and Higgins the best second line in the game PERIOD ...just think of the positive inner competitions that would arise between guys like Perezhogin, Bulis, Kostitsyn, Latendresse, etc...for a spot of the third line. Now THAT is the makings of a great team!!!

Slam. If by original post you mean this one above... let's see:

1 Ah geez Mull...or is that Mule??? I figure the tone of that opening sentence clearly points to your level of frustration over the whole Koivu being the habs best player thing. So the rest of the post just comes of, well cheesy.

2 Don't start with the saint saku crap again. And why is praising our captain and best player crap? Don't you sense the tone here And-o?

3. Clearly, Koivu is enjoying a mutually benaficial relationship with his new linemates. Funny how Koivu's line mates seemed to step it up when on Koivu's line. Your choice of phrasing is clever but I don't imagine unnoticed by our intelligent crew here at gohabs.com.

Hey, I get that we have different opinions on the subject. It's all good. But the general under currents of your posts are the annoying thing. We ALL have it figured out by now...you preferred Ribby to Koivu back in the day. Now that Koivu has proven who the REAL DEAL is, you are frustrated. Difference between you and I And-o is that I'm a hab fan first, If Ribby proved he deserved all the praise, I would be the first to jump on the bandwagon...I just call it how it is, without bias.

Pablo Honey · Veteran Member

Muller93 wrote:

If Ribby proved he deserved all the praise, I would be the first to jump on the bandwagon...I just call it how it is, without bias.

Everyone on this forum knows that's a lie. Even when Ribs has produced or has had good games, you've taken dumps on him. And-O's bias towards Saks is as blatant as yours is to Ribs.

Regardless, comparing the two is the most pointless venture one can undertake. One gets paid 5 mil a season while the other gets paid 1. Who SHOULD be prodicuing more on a nightly basis?

Of course it's Saks. If you want to go purely by the figures, he should score 5x more than Ribs and give 5x the effort. Lately, they've been on par.

barry33 · Guru

Pablo Honey wrote:

Muller93 wrote: If Ribby proved he deserved all the praise, I would be the first to jump on the bandwagon...I just call it how it is, without bias. Everyone on this forum knows that's a lie. Even when Ribs has produced or has had good games, you've taken dumps on him. And-O's bias towards Saks is as blatant as yours is to Ribs. Regardless, comparing the two is the most pointless venture one can undertake. One gets paid 5 mil a season while the other gets paid 1. Who SHOULD be prodicuing more on a nightly basis? Of course it's Saks. If you want to go purely by the figures, he should score 5x more than Ribs and give 5x the effort. Lately, they've been on par.

Actually I cannot disagree with either Pablo or And-O on this one. Koivu belongs on the second line and we need a legitimate, strong, Power Center up front between Kovalev and whoever Gainey can find to stick on the other wing. Anyone who knows hockey and wtaches unbiasedly (which I feel I do now that CJ is gone) can see that Saks has been playing tired all year. He has a good game where he can totally dominate and then, much like Kovalev, disappears for a few games. Because he is T-I-R-E-D. Now he is off to play in the Olympics and should be even more tired when he gets back. Anyway..I am tired of this debate and have made my point..if I am the coach or GM I build a good secondary line and secondary PP unit with Koivu after I find a decent first line center. And Yes Pablo I agree..the same "Saks for Sainthood" group is the same one who refuse to even acknowledge when Ribs does something decent (which I admit is not often). I believe this is because of the dustup 2 years ago with Saks.

Ando · Guru

barry33 wrote:

...the dustup 2 years ago with Saks.

Barry33 makes And-o laugh!

...Barry33's 'dust-up' and And-o's tickle-fight are the same thing!!!

Seriously though, you hit the nail on the head...Saku, Higs & Ryder would be awesome if Gainey could land someone to play between Kovalev and Zednik.

barry33 · Guru

Ando wrote:

barry33 wrote: ...the dustup 2 years ago with Saks. Barry33 makes And-o laugh! ...Barry33's 'dust-up' and And-o's tickle-fight are the same thing!!! Seriously though, you hit the nail on the head...Saku, Higs & Ryder would be awesome if Gainey could land someone to play between Kovalev and Zednik.

And-O - I am not gonna bash the guy. He has given too much to a habs sweater. But then again so did Lafluer, Belliveau etc..but they all accepted lesser roles with the team as they got older. This is a business. I learned that through Claude. Koivu is approaching it as a business as he should. So is Gainey. The guy can contribute with a lesser role for many years to come. As a Habs fan that is what I want to see. But right now he is quickly approaching burnout.

Ando · Guru

barry33 wrote:

...he is quickly approaching burnout.

...like Kirsty Allie in the snack-food aisle, it is not a question of 'if'...but 'when'!!!

plouf · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Ando wrote: barry33 wrote: ...the dustup 2 years ago with Saks. Barry33 makes And-o laugh! ...Barry33's 'dust-up' and And-o's tickle-fight are the same thing!!! Seriously though, you hit the nail on the head...Saku, Higs & Ryder would be awesome if Gainey could land someone to play between Kovalev and Zednik. And-O - I am not gonna bash the guy. He has given too much to a habs sweater. But then again so did Lafluer, Belliveau etc..but they all accepted lesser roles with the team as they got older. This is a business. I learned that through Claude. Koivu is approaching it as a business as he should. So is Gainey. The guy can contribute with a lesser role for many years to come. As a Habs fan that is what I want to see. But right now he is quickly approaching burnout.

I don't think it's so much a question so much of Koivu needing to play a lesser role (he's not THAT old, and he's not playing that franchise-player minutes, let's not get carried away), as some other players showing up who can take the load off, so other teams can't key on him so much and so it's not so freakin' frustrating and disheartening to play for this organization. Anyway, that's probably just a question of definition. Not that important.

But this argument you guys are making is a bit contradictory. The fact that Koivu can't carry the team alone is true of any player, really, but we get to hear that it's his lack of leadership, that he "quit on the team"...and then after we win a few games we hear all this nice stuff about wanting to prolong his career and wanting to lend him a hand, and "we would never bash him" etc...

barry33 · Guru

plouf wrote:

barry33 wrote: Ando wrote: barry33 wrote: ...the dustup 2 years ago with Saks. Barry33 makes And-o laugh! ...Barry33's 'dust-up' and And-o's tickle-fight are the same thing!!! Seriously though, you hit the nail on the head...Saku, Higs & Ryder would be awesome if Gainey could land someone to play between Kovalev and Zednik. And-O - I am not gonna bash the guy. He has given too much to a habs sweater. But then again so did Lafluer, Belliveau etc..but they all accepted lesser roles with the team as they got older. This is a business. I learned that through Claude. Koivu is approaching it as a business as he should. So is Gainey. The guy can contribute with a lesser role for many years to come. As a Habs fan that is what I want to see. But right now he is quickly approaching burnout. I don't think it's so much a question so much of Koivu needing to play a lesser role (he's not THAT old, and he's not playing that franchise-player minutes, let's not get carried away), as some other players showing up who can take the load off, so other teams can't key on him so much and so it's not so freakin' frustrating and disheartening to play for this organization. Anyway, that's probably just a question of definition. Not that important. But this argument you guys are making is a bit contradictory. The fact that Koivu can't carry the team alone is true of any player, really, but we get to hear that it's his lack of leadership, that he "quit on the team"...and then after we win a few games we hear all this nice stuff about wanting to prolong his career and wanting to lend him a hand, and "we would never bash him" etc...

I still do not feel he is the ultimate leader and unless this 2 game turnaround continues for something resembling a prolonged period, I will continue to question the chemsitry in that dressingroom and Koivu's ability to turn it around as Captain. But I have never been an advocate of trading the guy. No he is not "that old" in years. But given what his body has been through, and the fact he is a little guy playing a big guy's position, it adds years to him physically. I have never bashed Koivu. The problem is that many of this board view anything less than a full-bell-ringing-group-hugging endorsement as "bashing". Because I question his role as a first line center and as a captain when, in my opinion, he will serve the team better in a lesser capacity, does not come anywhere close to bashing him.

Muller93 · Guru

barry33 wrote:

plouf wrote:
I have never bashed Koivu. The problem is that many of this board view anything less than a full-bell-ringing-group-hugging endorsement as "bashing". Because I question his role as a first line center and as a captain when, in my opinion, he will serve the team better in a lesser capacity, does not come anywhere close to bashing him.

Hey Barry. I actually have on numerous times pointed out when Ribby has done well. I make a point of doing that. I also agree that you, Barry, do not Bash Koivu. You make a logical argument for him needing some help and perhaps extending his career by not playing in ever game situation.

Actually, its pretty easy to tell from the tone of a post who is biased and who is not. Me thinking Koivu is a great player is not biased...he is. Me disliking Ribby is not biased---he has stunk all year. But I still point out when he does well.

No barry, you have never bashed Koivu and always make perfect sense to me. The only thing I sense from the TONE of your posts, is a general bias in that you prefer to stick the leadership issue all on Koivu rather than admit that possibly CJ had a role in letting the whole dressing room problems esculate. I sense you are maybe just a bit bitter towards Koivu for CJ's eventual fall??

barry33 · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

barry33 wrote: plouf wrote: I have never bashed Koivu. The problem is that many of this board view anything less than a full-bell-ringing-group-hugging endorsement as "bashing". Because I question his role as a first line center and as a captain when, in my opinion, he will serve the team better in a lesser capacity, does not come anywhere close to bashing him. Hey Barry. I actually have on numerous times pointed out when Ribby has done well. I make a point of doing that. I also agree that you, Barry, do not Bash Koivu. You make a logical argument for him needing some help and perhaps extending his career by not playing in ever game situation. Actually, its pretty easy to tell from the tone of a post who is biased and who is not. Me thinking Koivu is a great player is not biased...he is. Me disliking Ribby is not biased---he has stunk all year. But I still point out when he does well. No barry, you have never bashed Koivu and always make perfect sense to me. The only thing I sense from the TONE of your posts, is a general bias in that you prefer to stick the leadership issue all on Koivu rather than admit that possibly CJ had a role in letting the whole dressing room problems esculate. I sense you are maybe just a bit bitter towards Koivu for CJ's eventual fall??

Muller- nothing could be farther from the truth actually. I am way past the Julien thing and to be honest, I enjoy watching my team so much more now that I do not have to worry about what kind of job he is doing. And in my talks with him HE is much less stressed and more happy now and is entertaining job offers. My questioning of leadership came into play LONG before Julien's firing and I stand by it now. And it has absolutely zero to do with how I feel about Koivu. It has been so painfully apparent that the dressing room is poisoned all season. Is this Sak's fault? No more than it was CJ's fault that the players quit on him or it would be Carbo's fault if they quit on him. But the fact is Muller, that the Captain HAS GOT TO GET THESE GUYS TOGETHER! This is true of the NHL or Bantam AAA that I coach. If I have issues with kids on my team (as far as attitude, forming cliques, whatever), then for the most part it is my team leaders who fix this not me. The players at whatever level, listen to and respect their peers.

TheoDoor · Member

Hey Barry,
Aren't you supposed to be in Myrtle Beach ??

plouf · Guru

Koivu criticism fine.

There are only a few (3 I think) guys who outright bash and they know who they are.

As for Barry, I totally trust your judgement in general but I have to agree in suspecting that your stance on Koivu lately is just as much fallout from the CJ thing, and just as biased as the loyalty to Koivu so many have.

Who knows what the true reason for the intensity of the Koivu debate is? Is it because he's treated like a saint? May have been true but is no longer, apparently. From a distance it's easy to tell he's the most respected player on this team by many die-hard fans, so it should be no surprise that when certain people relentlessly jab him and return to the Koivu topic and suggest we get rid of him when the team is faltering, we will defend him.

barry33 · Guru

plouf wrote:

Koivu criticism fine. There are only a few (3 I think) guys who outright bash and they know who they are. As for Barry, I totally trust your judgement in general but I have to agree in suspecting that your stance on Koivu lately is just as much fallout from the CJ thing, and just as biased as the loyalty to Koivu so many have. Who knows what the true reason for the intensity of the Koivu debate is? Is it because he's treated like a saint? May have been true but is no longer, apparently. From a distance it's easy to tell he's the most respected player on this team by many die-hard fans, so it should be no surprise that when certain people relentlessly jab him and return to the Koivu topic and suggest we get rid of him when the team is faltering, we will defend him.

Again Plouf I guess you will have to trust my judgement on the Koivu thing. Saks was not the reason that CJ got canned, trust me on that. In fact, if he were to start pointing fingers (but he will not publicly) I can tell you that there are many in front of the line ahead of number 11. But he is the captain and much is expected of him. I indicated way back in October that I felt there was a problem in that dressingroom and I still do. That has not changed. Bottom line is that if he remains a hab and Captain, it falls on his shoulders to get these guys together as a unit. I am not suggesting we get rid of him. All I am suggesting is that we look at EVERY AVENUE to fix the situation and leave no stone unturned.