My thoughts on this whole Koivu thing.

Zulrath · Senior Member

My thoughts on this whole Koivu thing.

patg · Member

Look at the stats. He has averaged about .8 points per game,(and in decline every year). His best year he got 70 points, has never played a full season (alwasys comes down with an injury every season). Since he's been captain has led this team to the playoffs in 2 of only 7 season (which 1 of those was from Jose Theodore). Those numbers speak for themselves, not a first line center and not captain material. I wouldn't resign him and if the Habs are out of a playoff spot by the trading deadline, I would trade him.

Zulrath · Senior Member

Well look at Mario Lemieux compaired to someone like Steve Yzerman.

You can't blame a captain for bad linemates.

patg · Member

Both Steve Yzerman and Mario Lemiuex have posted decent numbers during there peek years (26-30) and both have led there teams to the Stanley Cup. I think that says a lot.

Zulrath · Senior Member

But Lemieux couldn't do it with the group he had later on, the talent just wasn't there. It's a team sport.

barry33 · Guru

Zulrath wrote:

I'm not really sure why this Saku Koivu issue has gotten so far out of hand. Koivu is a player, just like anyone else. You don't go looking to trade him, but if the right trade comes your way, you can't sit back on it either. For example, there was a rumour once that Saku wanted to play with his brother in Minnesota, if there was a package offered that could land us someone like Marian Gaborik then I'd take it, but other then that leave it be.

Oh Oh you have gone and done it now lol. But you are right. He is a player, a commodity, just like anyone or anything else in the sport. As I said before, I am not here to put the guy down nor am I unappreciative to his contribution to the CH. And if Gainey signs him to a one year deal again as a second line center, I would be more than happy to have him stay. Do I think the team would fall apart if Saks moved on? No. The team has not fallen apart since CJ took a vacation and will continu elong after Saku Koivu is off playing beer league hockey in Finland.

But what does bother me, is the way that some treat him as a God. The mere mention of anything negative about Saks and you are descended upon like vultures. As inspiring as his comeback was from Cancer, I believe that the time has come to look beyond that. You can rest assured that Koivu's loyalty in these negotiations will only go as far as Bob Gainey's checkbook takes him. If Gainey does not belly up with the right money and a long term deal, Koivu and his agent will look after Koivu. And rightly so. It is a business. Nothing more and nothing less. As someone on this board said to me when I was upset about how Julien was fired, "don't take it personally".

As a fan, I question his leadership ability, given the state of the dressing room this year. My experience in the game as a coach and a professional player gives me an indication that he is no longer able to lead that team, for whatever reasons. That is a strong feeling I have. Do I have any proof I would like to share? Not at this time. However, there may be a day that something comes out to back my opinion. In the meantime it is just an intuition and feeling and lets leave it at that. But at the same time there is no one that can give me any proof that he is a great captain either. So in the meantime, I guess I will have to respect your opinion and you will need to respect mine. If anyone can give me evidence to the contrary (aside from "he works hard every night and he is Captain of the Finnish team", I am all ears). In the end, I trust that Gainey will do what is best for the team. His comments in the media lately indicate that no one is untouchable and that is exactly as it should be.

-- Edited by barry33 at 13:42, 2006-01-28

Ando · Guru

...And-o just wants to know what took everyone so long to clue in???

I do hope Koivu can salvage some sense of pride and pick-up his game to a respectable level...but his days as Captain are numbered...and his days as a number one centre should be just plain over soon!!!

Zulrath · Senior Member

Barry, I do completely respect your opinion. But for me I don't believe Saku is responsible for the current downfall of the habs. I will admit however that there are better leaders out there. But unless we can get one of those better leaders (which realistically, chances are wont happen) I think we're good. I don't think Saku is the problem in the dressing room. It's everyone else who isn't willing to EARN their paycheques.

wright · Veteran Member

In my mind there is no question that Koviu will not be back with the Habs next season. And I agree that if one looks at his production and histroy of injuries one can't consider him a number one center, a very solid number two center is a better reflection of his skill level. The fact that he is the teams number one center indicates the talent level of the team at this time. My question for the Koviu critics is this: who are you going to get to replace him next year? It is a well established fact that the Canadiens have not been able to sign any top teir free agents over the last decade, and given the dysfunctional tone of this team who would want to sign on. So if we can't sign a quality free agent, then what? Since this team has very little in the way of top talent to trade the idea of getting an upgrade on Koviu looks unrealistic.

Ando · Guru

Well Wright...thanks to the salary cap...the Habs can now compete with ANYONE for top level free-agents.

Lots of teams are going to have trouble meeting the Cap...so I have no worries at all about being able to upgrade the number one centre slot.

And-o recalls...not so long ago...being heckled for listing guys like Brind'Amour, Primeau and Weight as being HUGE upgrades over Saku!!! And, even with Primeau's injury...I'd still take any one of these three (just as a starter list).

Then there is Richards, LeCavalier, Sundin, Jolkinen, Kozlov, Modano, Sakic, Forsberg....and so on...and so on...and so on...

...the point is though - NO PROBLEM!

Nil d · Guru

Ando wrote:

...And-o just wants to know what took everyone so long to clue in??? I do hope Koivu can salvage some sense of pride and pick-up his game to a respectable level...but his days as Captain are numbered...and his days as a number one centre should be just plain over soon!!!

And-o, I will agree to this:

(1) Koivu's talent puts him more a #2 center than a #1. (But right now he's the best we have.)

(2) If it is true (and only if) that he's not good in the dressing room, then I'd be OK if he were stripped of the "C".

Other than those criticisms, he is easily the most consistent player on the team, shows up most nights (which we can't say of the rest of the team), has much more good games than bad, averages almost a point a game, and leads the team in points and plus/minus. He's our best forward, bar none. Remove his "C" if you must, but otherwise why get rid of him?????????

barry33 · Guru

Nil d wrote:

Ando wrote: ...And-o just wants to know what took everyone so long to clue in??? I do hope Koivu can salvage some sense of pride and pick-up his game to a respectable level...but his days as Captain are numbered...and his days as a number one centre should be just plain over soon!!! And-o, I will agree to this: (1) Koivu's talent puts him more a #2 center than a #1. (But right now he's the best we have.) (2) If it is true (and only if) that he's not good in the dressing room, then I'd be OK if he were stripped of the "C". Other than those criticisms, he is easily the most consistent player on the team, shows up most nights (which we can't say of the rest of the team), has much more good games than bad, averages almost a point a game, and leads the team in points and plus/minus. He's our best forward, bar none. Remove his "C" if you must, but otherwise why get rid of him?????????

Agreed Nilsey. It will come down to the contract negotiations. If Koivu and his agent feel he is still a number one center and deserves to be paid as such, but Gainey does not, then it is time to part ways. You cannot afford to pay Koivu 5 million a year and then try to find 5-6 more to sign a number one guy. As for the captaincy, I leave that up to Gainey to sort out as well.

davidb · Guru

As much as we are discussing the Capt, we need to realize he is just one of the picture. There are many many problems with this team that will not and maybe cannot be fixed this year

Zulrath · Senior Member

davidb wrote:

As much as we are discussing the Capt, we need to realize he is just one of the picture. There are many many problems with this team that will not and maybe cannot be fixed this year

I can't agree with you more. If even half the team had the heart Saku did, we'd be doing some damage to others and not ourselves.

davidb · Guru

They are playing like its late in the season and we know we are not going to the playoffs. They are playing like "come on guys get the golf clubs out" Like they just do not give a s***