a major problem for Habs and Theo is ...

Forum Fan · Veteran Member

a major problem for Habs and Theo is ...

JohnM · Guru

Sounds like a plan as long as the Habs winning is part of it.

plouf · Guru

Forum Fan wrote:

the expectations and fickleness of Hab fans , it is a big , big problem which puts too much pressure on players ..especially Francophone or hometown heros .....it's no wonder some players want to avoid Montreal at all costs ..... to worsen matters , a player can be a hero one day and a zero the next , Montreal fans are the best and the worse fans all at the same time ......and most of the posters to GoHabs.com are not far behind ...... yesterday I spent far too much time reviewing previous and at least ninety-five per cent of the posters to this board wanted Theodore signed at any cost ..the thought of trading him was unthinkable ......some thought otherwise , but a lot of you are bandwagon jumpers of the worse kind ..ironically this board like the Habs has gone from quality to quantity and many posters are mirror images of their favourite targets on the Habs ... I think Theodore should sat for awhile not so much as a form of punishment , but to collect his thoughts and regain his poise ..... As for myself , I never thought that Theodore should have been signed to a long term contract , but now that it's been done I'm sticking with him .......I hope he goes on a tear then I'm really going to have a rip at some galvanized Hab fans

Great post. I totally agree.

I'm pretty down on Theo right now, and I'm embarassed about agreeing with getting rid of CJ who I always thought was great. But basically my usual issue with this board (even when I'm guilty of it too) is that people panic too quickly.

I'm still thinking Bonk has what it takes to be a key player for this team. I also hope Koivu stays. Believe it or not, I think a centre combination of Koivu-Plekanec-Bonk-Ribeiro has potential.

Nil d · Guru

plouf wrote:

Believe it or not, I think a centre combination of Koivu-Plekanec-Bonk-Ribeiro has potential.

You know plouf, at the start of the year, that centre combo didn't seem so bad on paper. What happened???????

Desi · Senior Member

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with some of these statements. Playing a profeesional sport, whether you're in your hometown and speaking French or playing in a foreign country and learning Swahili, requires the ability to deal with pressure. Media pressure, fan pressure, pressure from teammates, unrealistic expectations -- it's all part of the deal. It's why pro athletes are paid what they're paid. They work not just for the team that signs their paychecks, but for the fans who pay for the seats, too. I have no sympathy for athletes who bow to pressure and even less for those who use it as an excuse, not because I'm jealous of what they are paid (though who wouldn't be?) but because they all know going in that's it's a part of their job.

You're certainly right when you describe the fickleness of fans, though -- including many of them who are so devoted to this team that they spend their time regularly visiting this site. Fair-weather fans abound and there are no fewer of them in Montreal than anywhere else. One difference to me, though, is that Montreal fans (including many of the people who post on this site) seem to know more about hockey than others. I'm always interested in knowing what people think COULD help this struggling team. Do I expect that Bob Gainey is going to adopt everything that's proposed here? Of course not. But part of being a true fan, it seems to me, is examining what's working and what's not -- and these things change over time. It's not hypocritical to have wanted Theo signed at any cost last summer and wish he were elsewhere now. It's simply an expression of the belief that he's not going to get better and won't ever regain his past form. That's cynical maybe, but not necessarily hypocritical.

I've been a Habs fan for almost 40 years. No other team will ever earn my allegiance. But I reserve the right to tell it like I see it, whilst recognizing that nobody (and especially the players and Canadiens management) could give a flying Flyer what I think.

Should fans have more patience? Possibly. But I think many of the people who post here and remember the great Montreal teams of years past are tired of waiting for a return to competence. It has been a long, long, long time since the B-B-&-R have done anything noteworthy. And then this year's good start happened and got everybody jazzed up about the team's chances -- only to see those chances being dashed on the rocks of poor play.

So if the patience is wearing thin, I'd say it might be for a good reason.

Les Canadiens Sont La

24 Rings · Guru

Couldn't agree more. You are bang on, Desi.

I don't think it is too much to expect some results...how long has it been since this team has been a cup contender? Basically since the break-up of '93. There have been a few embarassing years in recent history and this slump is getting pretty embarassing. Meanwhile many teams that we laughed at 5 or 6 years ago have surpassed us in talent and in the standings. I love the Habs no matter what they do, but after a while the frustration starts to show a little bit. Especially as they have been bloody awful the past almost 3 months. They haven't been well managed over the past 8 or 10 years, poor trades and poor draft picks. To top it off, you can see the lack of desire and effort out on the ice. Maybe it is a new system? I don't know, but getting slaughtered as they have shouldn't happen no matter what the system.

I think it is our rights as a paying fan to voice displeasure. Just cause we wanted to sign a guy initially doesn't mean we have to stick by him forever. If that was the case there wouldn't be any trades. Like any passionate fan I want my team to do well and I get frustrated when they don't. Buddy makes millions to cope with pressure and I find it hard to feel sorry for these guys when they go under media and fan scrutiny. You are paid to do a job, so you do it and if you can't, make room for someone else that can. That is how every job in this world works. These guys know what they are getting into playing in a hockey city like Montreal.

And on the whole Theo thing - I have rarely seen a goalie totally self destruct like this guy has.

Johnny USA · Veteran Member

Desi - question (or Nil d)

Desi · Senior Member

RE: a major problem for Habs and Theo is ...

plouf · Guru

I have no problem with the expectations, just that sometimes I wish it just didn't sound like petulant whining and complaining, not to mention backstabbing. I mean, do we actually like the Habs or not? I LIKE Koivu, Bulis, Kovalev, Rivet, Markov, Ryder, Begin, Souray, Bouillon, Zednik, etc...even Ribeiro and Bonk, and especially a lot of the young players. Even the current scapegoat Theodore. Doesn't mean I'm not depressed about what's happening, but I don't change my mind about players that quickly, and I tend not to blame single individuals' recent play for the way a team is playing as a whole, and in the long-term. As a person who's played plenty of team sports (just like most of us here), I know it's rarely as simple as getting rid of one person, or blaming one person. It's never as simple as we make it out to be.

I think, actually, that guys like Theodore, Brisebois, etc... DO play better for other teams. What does this mean? We can sit there and say "that's no excuse" but I doubt that's what a real analyst like Gainey's doing. What he really would like to do is change the environment around Montreal, actually make it so that great players WANT to play here. That's a big part of the problem. If the fans are so serious about winning, they might want to think about that.

Everybody has the right to say whatever they please. Sure. By the same token, I have the right to say I disagree with what some people are saying.

Probably one of the main things that keeps me posting is the disagreements, after all.

Jay1982 · Guru

Forum Fan wrote:

the expectations and fickleness of Hab fans , it is a big , big problem which puts too much pressure on players ..especially Francophone or hometown heros .....it's no wonder some players want to avoid Montreal at all costs ..... to worsen matters , a player can be a hero one day and a zero the next , Montreal fans are the best and the worse fans all at the same time ......and most of the posters to GoHabs.com are not far behind ...... yesterday I spent far too much time reviewing previous and at least ninety-five per cent of the posters to this board wanted Theodore signed at any cost ..the thought of trading him was unthinkable ......some thought otherwise , but a lot of you are bandwagon jumpers of the worse kind ..ironically this board like the Habs has gone from quality to quantity and many posters are mirror images of their favourite targets on the Habs ... I think Theodore should sat for awhile not so much as a form of punishment , but to collect his thoughts and regain his poise ..... As for myself , I never thought that Theodore should have been signed to a long term contract , but now that it's been done I'm sticking with him .......I hope he goes on a tear then I'm really going to have a rip at some galvanized Hab fans

Thats what happenes when you have a message board, you get people of all type, actually the worse fans in the world are TO fans.

barry33 · Guru

Great Post and well thought out. It is funny how people's opinions change. I spent a month defending Julien but now, as a habs fan, realize it was a move that had to be made. I still believe that we have a bunch of quitters though and that makes me want to lose my lunch, but Gainey is the guy who needs to fix that.

I for one was not one of those who signed the "Sign Theo at All Costs" petition. I felt that his agent was asking way too much for what he had done in one season and obviously, I still feel that way. Maybe Don Meehan (Theo's agent) should lose some of his commission for robbing the Habs? Now the heat seems to be turning on Saku Koivu. I have been persistent in my views on Koivu. I like the work ethic and what he brings to the team. But I am going on record as saying there is no way he should be signed to more than one year plus an option. This is not a knock on him. It is purely a business decision. I tended to let my personal views on Julien cloud what should have been a strictly business decision. Some Koivu supporters tend to do that as well. The fact is, he is injury prone and although his 12 goals and 23 assists are appreciated, they are not the material of a number one center anymore, the fact is that he is the 37th ranked center in the league and 35 points would not put him anywhere near the top of scoring on any other team. To put things in perspective, Yannik Perreault is 18 and 18 for 36 points.

So if we throw the stats out we look at intangibles. What does he bring defensively. Well he is a plus 5. Not bad on a team full of minus players but to put it in perspective, Spezza is a plus 20. So what does he bring to the dressing room? Well that will be up to Gainey to find out, judge and decide on when negotiating.

plouf · Guru

I'm a Saku supporter, obviously, but I don't necessarily disagree that he is only a borderline number one centre. I just take exception to the way he's been singled out for criticism.

And remember, certain statements were made to the effect that it's not the coach's fault if the players aren't showing effort - well the same could be said about the captain and then some (although I pretty much disagree on both counts, and it IS the captain's responsibility to lead and improve effort, although the coach's even more so).

The critics conveniently forget that Koivu was one of the 4-5 players carrying the team during the first 30-35 games, and that if Montreal was winning, it was not because of players like Ribeiro, Bonk and Souray, now apparently forgiven (1) touted as the top centre on the team (2) and mentioned as a possible captain (3). Has anybody thought about the possibility that Souray's public display of gratitude toward Julien might be related to the fact that CJ stuck by him and gave him top-3 minutes even when he looked positively awful on the ice? CJ's loyalty to Ribeiro, Dagenais, Souray, etc...might very well be related to some of the problems in the dressing room as well. Not that I support Koivu's parting shot, but I think when comparing it to Souray's "owning up" we have to remember the context - a team that is still in the playoff hunt DESPITE his own poor play. I'm glad Bonk, Ribeiro and Souray are all playing better now, but let's not jump to conclusions is all I want to say.

As for Theodore, I'm with you there. Oh well. I cling to a tiny hope he'll get it together, but I'm not holding my breath.

-- Edited by plouf at 16:43, 2006-01-26

barry33 · Guru

All good points Pouf. I still stand by Souray for being accountable. I am all for accountability, regardless of what we surmise his motives may have been. Any time a player goes public and says that "we need to be better" instead of finger pointing, as a coach, that is what I look for. Funny, the Bantam team I coach we have been through a similar stretch lately (the difference is that I would LOVE for the parents to fire me lol). But I am lucky I have good captains who, at age 15, have taken control of the room and are bringing the "bad apples" under control. That is something that, as a coach, I really cannot do.

Johnny USA · Veteran Member

Desi wrote:

Johnny -- Les Canadiens Sont La is a phrase and a song that has historically been sung by the natives of Montreal (at least the French-speaking ones) when the Habs do something noteworthy, like winning the cup. The literal translation is "The Canadiens are There," but figuratively, I guess it's something more along the lines of, "We did it, we are the champions." Maybe one of the home-towners can tell us more about it. Too bad there's no audio -- or we could perhaps coerce someone into singing it for us after a few Molsons.

Thanks for the explanantion Desi.

Desi · Senior Member

No problem, Johnny. I'm told that this song used to be played after every Hab goal in the Forum -- before they started playing music like Vertigo and stuff from Twisted Sister instead...

Have fun at the game at the TD BankNorth Gahden. I'm venturing up to the Bell Center for the Saturday game vs. Bruins. The Habs better win!!!

Les Canadiens sont la