Why some stars haven't signed in MTL

Jay1982 · Guru

Why some stars haven't signed in MTL

wright · Veteran Member

Jay1982 wrote:

Its not because Gainey hasn't been working, its because these people DO NOT want to play in montreal!!!! Why? The media, Le Journal de Montreal, La Presse, TQS mainly have given montreal a reputation that isn't a good one. Gainey offered more money to some of the free agents who signed, but decided to take less money and not have to deal with the crazy reports who will camp outside your home and see if you are faking an injury, or find anything against you so they can make headlines, even if it comes down to language. Seriously, I would BAN these companies, and let only the MATURE journalists in. This problem isnt gonna get any better anytime soon.

You can also add in, the higher tax rates, the language issue with regard to players children having restricted access to english schools. Some players enjoy playing in a city where the game has a high profile, but in this day in age a lot of players like the big salary in a town where hockey has a low profile.

Gainey has his work cut out for him, but if he does not upgrade this team, he will be looking in the mirror as teams like the Bruins, the Leafs and the Penguins have all improved themselves thus far in the offseason.

mperra (Admin) · Guru

Excellent posts!!!! This is what I was alluding to all along.

Look at the money Arnott signed. You think Gainey couldn't offer more? Maybe he did.

But with Quebec's tax disadvatage, and the media, players aren't dumb, nor are they immune to the stupidity that goes on here. The word gets out. Players talk. And the journalist who chastised Saku Koivu for not speaking French, you think the other 750 NHl hockey players don't here this crap?

Of course they do.

This is why i predicted the Canadiens would NOT make a big splash into the Free agency frenzy.

So what is GM Gainey to do? Well look carefully at what he is doing. He is trying to stock pile Hamilton with draft picks. The Canadiens even terminated the agreement they had with the Oilers whereby the Edmonton Oilers supplied 5 players to their AHL affiliate in Hamilton. No more. The Canadiens are going on their own.

And if you have excess talent on the farm, which the Canadiens do NOT, they you are in a position to trade. Zednik and Ribiero will only be had for draft picks. People should accept this.

In addition, the Canadiens have to go after the middle of the pack free agents remaining. If you recall last year, many teams did well picking up players in the $1M - $2M range.

Other option is to improve via trade. But this can only begin to take form once most of the free agents pool dries up.

So enjoy the hot summer months because you won't miss much.

SpiderManNL · Guru

So you guys expect me to believe that out of all the UFA out there...not one of them wants to play for Montreal??? I'm sorry but I just don't buy that.

Saku11 · Senior Member

i completely disagree. Money will buy anything.... anybody can be sold. Its not montreal, its not the Media, Its not the fans....

Its the asking Price! $$$$$$$$$$

not enough desire to spend a little more on a center Who scored 30+ goals at 4 .75 mil....

But its ok to spend 4.75 on Koivu

Jay1982 · Guru

Saku11 wrote:

i completely disagree. Money will buy anything.... anybody can be sold. Its not montreal, its not the Media, Its not the fans....
Its the asking Price! $$$$$$$$$$
not enough desire to spend a little more on a center Who scored 30+ goals at 4 .75 mil....
But its ok to spend 4.75 on Koivu

Well thats your opinion, you can continue to hate Gainey for no reason.

Jay1982 · Guru

And for you that don't believe what Mario, wright, and myself are saying. You'd have to see some of the offers that Gainey has thrown out at some of the players who already signed.

And no, money doesn't buy everyone. A person with a head who knows how much BULL**** and stress they have to put up with here won't come here for a million more.

Its funny, cause most of you bitch and complain when Gainey hands out a salary saying he's being overpaid, then when someone gets signed by another team you bitch and complain saying Gainey should have given that specific player the moon, that Gainey could have offered him more. Pick a side, and stick with it.

Gravelbourger · Member

I don't hate Gainey but the sound of crickets at the Bell Center is tiring already. Sydor signs for 2.4 mil in Dallas......he is exactly what we needed......I'd of offered TB way more than a fourth round pick for him.

Muller93 · Guru

Saku11 wrote:

i completely disagree. Money will buy anything.... anybody can be sold. Its not montreal, its not the Media, Its not the fans.... Its the asking Price! $$$$$$$$$$ not enough desire to spend a little more on a center Who scored 30+ goals at 4 .75 mil.... But its ok to spend 4.75 on Koivu

Hey saku11...you have kids? Awife?

Imagine for a moment that I offered you a job in a place where people will genuinly hate you if you do not speak their language...I offer you 7.5mil/year. You have to send your wife to make friends with people who ignore her...your kids go to school and all the other kids don't like them because their parents told them to dislike people who do not learn the language.

And every time you begin to emerg as a company leader...some fool starts spouting off that you are not worthy because you don't speak their language...even though your job is not in the least bit impacted by the language you speak...you are confused and frustrated...Your kids are upset...your wife is depressed...and you cannot have one off day at work...or the company big mouth will start yappin again. And the guy who does speak the language but is not even remotely as skilled as you, picks a fight with you at the bar because he knows he can get away with it...

And, on top of that, it's a really cold climate...minus 20 degrees today.

One day while walking down the hall...a piece of concrete lands on your head and you suffer potential brain damage...potentially ending your career. You hold a press conference to all the investors to politely thank everyone for their support and that you plan on coming back even stronger to help the company...then, suddenly one of the guys in the audience starts going on again about the language thing...and there you are...brain damaged and not even sure about your future career...but you answer politely... imagine.

Now imagine a job in Pheonix emerges...less money....6.5mil...but it's warm...the people who care at all welcome you as a hero. Your kids are not continually hassled. Your wife makes all kinds of friends. You have one one bad day in the office and no one notices right away...only the company owner notices... so you pull up your boot straps and have a better day next time...all is good.

Would the exta million REALLY mean that much to you Saku11?? How about 2 million? I didn't think so...and neither does Jason Arnott etc...

Jay1982 · Guru

Muller93, well put. Money is not the only thing going on!!!!!

Kendich · Veteran Member

Muller93 wrote:

Hey saku11...you have kids? Awife? Imagine for a moment that I offered you a job in a place where people will genuinly hate you if you do not speak their language...I offer you 7.5mil/year. You have to send your wife to make friends with people who ignore her...your kids go to school and all the other kids don't like them because their parents told them to dislike people who do not learn the language. And every time you begin to emerg as a company leader...some fool starts spouting off that you are not worthy because you don't speak their language...even though your job is not in the least bit impacted by the language you speak...you are confused and frustrated...Your kids are upset...your wife is depressed...and you cannot have one off day at work...or the company big mouth will start yappin again. And the guy who does speak the language but is not even remotely as skilled as you, picks a fight with you at the bar because he knows he can get away with it... And, on top of that, it's a really cold climate...minus 20 degrees today. One day while walking down the hall...a piece of concrete lands on your head and you suffer potential brain damage...potentially ending your career. You hold a press conference to all the investors to politely thank everyone for their support and that you plan on coming back even stronger to help the company...then, suddenly one of the guys in the audience starts going on again about the language thing...and there you are...brain damaged and not even sure about your future career...but you answer politely... imagine. Now imagine a job in Pheonix emerges...less money....6.5mil...but it's warm...the people who care at all welcome you as a hero. Your kids are not continually hassled. Your wife makes all kinds of friends. You have one one bad day in the office and no one notices right away...only the company owner notices... so you pull up your boot straps and have a better day next time...all is good. Would the exta million REALLY mean that much to you Saku11?? How about 2 million? I didn't think so...and neither does Jason Arnott etc...

Well put Muller. Best post I've read in a while. Really puts things into perspective.

Habtastic · Guru

The only chance we had with Arnott is the Carbo/Gainey connection and it wasn't enough. I was afraid this would happen for the exact same reason you guys state. I am shocked, to be honest, that Shanny has us on his short-list and not surprised at all that we are not even on Roenick's short-list even though he wants to play in Canada. Even a media-hound like him doesn't want to come to Montreal!

Depressing, but beautifully put, Muller.

Habtastic

Figaro · Guru

Well said! Seriously, us folks who only get the english-Canadian and US media reports HAVE NO CLUE!! Now, not all Quebec media is scum, don't get me wrong. But they are going to be the end of the most beautiful franchise in pro-sport. The honest and pure Habs. Nothing compares. When are they going to accept that great hockey players can come from other countries and speak other toungues? This isn't the 50s, you know. Every player on the Habs won't be from Quebec. Anyway, let's gather up these clowns and tell 'em what's what.

barry33 · Guru

YAWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNN- all I hear are excuses and more excuses. Gainey is living off of his success in Dallas and has done very little since coming to Montreal. Why is he being given a free ride? The same reasons that Carbo will be given a free ride. Because they were once great.All I heard was how Arnott was going to come here because of Gainey. Kovalev signed here. Koivu loves it so much that he asked for a no trade clause. Gainey knew full well what it was like in Montreal yet he took the job and promised success in 5 years. Talk about taxes all you want. Talk about the media. Guys in the league will tell you that Toronto media is every bit as harsh as Montreal and then some..so let me start the phrase for next season before it even kicks off "Wait til next year"

mperra (Admin) · Guru

barry33 wrote:

... Guys in the league will tell you that Toronto media is every bit as harsh as Montreal and then some..so let me start the phrase for next season before it even kicks off "Wait til next year"

Yes Toronto media is harsh, but they are tame compared to Montreal's Journal de Montreal and TQS' hockey trash TV show 110% . And Toronto does overpay its signings.

Habtastic · Guru

I think it became very clear what the mentality was about going to Montreal when Laraque said he would retire if he was ever traded here. That comment just about sealed our chances of ever landing top guys.

Habtastic

Saku11 · Senior Member

Mulsy, i respect your opinion and your post was really well done. But i ha ve to agree with Barry33 and i still stand on my opinion. Gainey has not, i repeat, NOT produced since arriving in Montreal. He has promised, and not acomplished. Its tough to see teams wanting to improve and wheeling and dealing. But not us.

Like i said i rspect all of your opinion, But how does Mario, Jay1982 or anyone else who post that players dont want to come here because of Taxes, Language, Media Know any of this? NONE DO.. Do they speak to players montreal is approaching
?? NO, so the only obvious is Gainey not doing his Job.

JohnM · Guru

Could it be that Gainey doesn't want to get locked into big salaries and long term deals a la Theo. No way do you sign guys for 5+ years in the new NHL. Chara was one of the worst defenceman in the playoffs and he was signed to big $, that's a real smart move... Let's see how far Boson gets.

Habtastic · Guru

I respect the fact that you respect our opinions, but with all do respect, your logic is flawed. You are asking questions of people and then asnwering for them; you are saying because someone may not know something that it becomes not true. That is like saying because I did not know that you put on clothes this week, you didn't.

No, Gainey did not sign anyone... yet. Yes it is a fact that he tried and offered more money to some players, as it has been reported by media outlets. It is also a fact that players do not want to come here, because they have said so publicly.

We all want results and yes, I too am dissapointed Gainey couldn't find a way to get some players here, but the Summer is long and Gainey found himself in a cul de sac, but he will turn the car around and find another route. And if at the the end of the Summer he has not found that route, then I too will be very dissapointed in him.

Habtastic

Fatherhab · Senior Member

What a weekend folks. Free agency and yet the Habs have not signed anyone from that route. Hmmmmmmmm Chara - Boston can have him, error proned, overpaid, undisciplined. Jovo- nice guy but injury proned and since his amazing years in Florida has done little- where did he take the Canucks? Lagenbrunner- best yrs are behind him when he was in Dallas. Weight- another overpaid over-the-hill performer. Elias- had no intention of leaving Jersey. Arnott- Probably wanted to much money on a long term contract which at his age would have come back to haunt us in years 3,4 and 5.

We're solid in Net, defensively we are not bad overall, now if Souray and Markov could produce more offensively we would be in bettter shape.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but until playoff time rolls around and the Stanley Cup is in another team's hands in 2007, Gainey has my vote of confidence. He still has all those salary dollars and the cap limit which is going to haunt other teams. Right now Gainey will have the advantage over these teams when it comes time to make moves as the season progresses. The season has not yet begun, so lets just see what happens. Boy, I am glad that Gainey did not sink 57 million dollars into 2 non Stanley Cup ring-bearing players.

Muller93 · Guru

barry33 wrote:

YAWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNN- all I hear are excuses and more excuses. Gainey is living off of his success in Dallas and has done very little since coming to Montreal. Why is he being given a free ride? The same reasons that Carbo will be given a free ride. Because they were once great.All I heard was how Arnott was going to come here because of Gainey. Kovalev signed here. Koivu loves it so much that he asked for a no trade clause. Gainey knew full well what it was like in Montreal yet he took the job and promised success in 5 years. Talk about taxes all you want. Talk about the media. Guys in the league will tell you that Toronto media is every bit as harsh as Montreal and then some..so let me start the phrase for next season before it even kicks off "Wait til next year"

Yawn all you want Barry...Let me ask you this...

Do you speak French? If not, have you ever attempted a move to Quebec to work?

I have... and I have 3-4 buddies who have. If you do not speak the language...your work assossiates are really welcoming for the first 5-6 months...then if you have not attempted to learn the language...they begin ignoring you and even only speaking french around you even though previously they spoke english to you....Try it Barry...I dare you...you wiould hate it by the end of the year( as a caveat, let me say that this is not a blanket statement for everyone in Quebec..I have met some outstanding individuals). But it does not take many to make you feel very uncomfortable...

So before you claim that players are not as human as you and I...I say give it a shot Barry...then claim....YAWWWNN. It would change your perspective trust me. And these players do talk to one another. edit

So hungry for local hero's is the french media, that even many local players would rather avoid the hotstove...and why not...they earn equal pay anyhow in Buffalo.

I have no problem with that attitude if your work can be affected by not learning the language( maybe in the field of marketing/human resourses...I don't know). But if not...then it should not be an issue. Especially when 90% of Quebec is functional in both languages anyhow.

And Ya T.O. has a media craze as well...but no one kicks the Sh#@ out of a Russian guy for not speaking enlish...hmmmmmmm????

I really think if you could ask Gainey himself...he would tell you Montreal is a hard sell nowadays.

-- Edited by Muller93 at 11:21, 2006-07-03

wright · Veteran Member

Saku11 wrote:

Mulsy, i respect your opinion and your post was really well done. But i ha ve to agree with Barry33 and i still stand on my opinion. Gainey has not, i repeat, NOT produced since arriving in Montreal. He has promised, and not acomplished. Its tough to see teams wanting to improve and wheeling and dealing. But not us. Like i said i rspect all of your opinion, But how does Mario, Jay1982 or anyone else who post that players dont want to come here because of Taxes, Language, Media Know any of this? NONE DO.. Do they speak to players montreal is approaching?? NO, so the only obvious is Gainey not doing his Job.

Make no mistake the linguistic issue and the ensuing political aspects attached to it are a big issue. My cousin played in the NHL up until 2003 and he did indicate more than once that Montreal was not a preferred first destination for many players. That is not to say that players would totally shun playing for the Habs, but if all things were equal Montreal would lose out many times. Every year there are is a francophone player that comes out and says he would not prefer to play in Montreal, this past season Belanger and Laracque have been both quoted stating a preference not to play in Montreal. Do they represent the majority? I don't know, but I am not aware of any other city that is as frequently stated by players as a place they do ot wish to play in. Does this obstacle absolve Gainey of not upgrading the team, of course not, but it is still early in the offseason, and I don't think it is fair to grade Gainey as a failure as yet. UFA signings are just one component to upgrading the team, lets see what moves he does make before stating that he is not doing his job.

mperra (Admin) · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

So hungry for local hero's is the french media, that even many local players would rather avoid the hotstove...and why not...they earn equal pay anyhow in Buffalo.

So hungry? Let's put this in perspective. Mike Ribeiro credits the French media for when he stuck aroiund and made the team as a teenager (19).

And were it not for voice of reason of Gainey's, G Latendresse would have also made the team last year. Nuts I tell you.

Now as far as a unilingual functioning in this city. It can be challenging. I have many co-workers who are British (I work for a British based company) and they do function in English, but after two years here, the government (Quebec) is making it difficult for them especially if they have yet to sign up to French classes. Oh yeah, they must send their children to French school.

This in a way is one of the reason why the Canadiens have many Europeans on the club. Would free-agents from North America want to sign with Montreal, if Phoenix, for example, is offering the same money?

Jay1982 · Guru

Saku11 wrote:

Gainey has not, i repeat, NOT produced since arriving in Montreal. He has promised, and not acomplished. Its tough to see teams wanting to improve and wheeling and dealing. But not us.
Like i said i rspect all of your opinion, But how does Mario, Jay1982 or anyone else who post that players dont want to come here because of Taxes, Language, Media Know any of this? NONE DO.. Do they speak to players montreal is approaching?? NO, so the only obvious is Gainey not doing his Job.

Actually, I've heard it from 2 player's agents, 1 scout, and 1 TV personality that solidfies my sentiments. And I do believe that Gainey will turn this team around and make it into a winning organization. You think all the bad trades and crapy draft picks for over a decade can be resolved in a season or two? Rebuilding takes time.

I do not compare Gainey from Dallas to Gainey from Montreal. Because no situation is the same. Yes he MIGHT not do as good in montrel, however, he might do better. Let me ask anyone here this, when gainey was in dallas, how many times did you hear of him making a BLOCKBUSTER trade? Not that often, he did so once in awhile, most of his corps came from the inside. You didn't hear Dallas much on the trade front, or the free agent market. They usually re-signed their own. And what happened, they became a winning organaization.

Manton · Member

Forgive me for my igorance of Quebec language politics but I find it hard to believe that if you are English born whether you are born in Quebec or not, that you have to send your children to a French school???

On a side note, I seem to recall a story about Carbo having problems sending one of his children to an English school in Quebec???

Anyway, there's no doubt that in Montreal, you have to offer more to attract players but most I think do shy away because the language/media scrutiny.

Jay1982 · Guru

And when Gainey does that, he gets put on the cross.

Power · Veteran Member

There was some great points. But let`s face it, if we want to have quick success, only way to do that is get some good free agents. It takes time to build with drafts, especially when our turn is usually in the middle section, so we never get top prospects.

If free agents don`t want to come to Montreal, who is to say that it`s getting easier with trades? There is only a few players in Habs who has any trade value. Hopefully, the young develope a lot and olders keep their level.

barry33 · Guru

To answer a few points..yes I am fully and fluently bilingual. Although English, I am well aware of the situation in Quebec. It is not alot unlike the situation in New Brunswick. NB is a bilingual province where it is virtually impossible here to get a decent job without speaking french and english. It is just a fact I learned to live with many years ago and rather than whine about it and make excuses, I chose to learn another language. How do you think a guy like Lacavalier felt when he moved to Tampa and could hardly speak English? If your argument is true then in theory, all french players would want to play in Montreal because it would be so hard to play in an English city?

The bottom line is getting the job done. If a team is losing , no one cares if the team is riddled with injuries or bad luck..if they do not win the coach gets canned. Do your points have some legitimacy (ie language, media, taxes)? Absolutely. And I do not mean to discount them. They are factors...not reasons. However, we cannot continue to use them as a crutch or an excuse. Gainey has to be more creative. Kovalev has said that Montreal is the best city he has ever played in. Koivu the same. Doug Gilmour and Kirk Muller the same when they were there. These are world class players. Gainey is one of the most well respected hockey minds in the business. He has connections with guys like Arnott and Langenbruner, yet they chose to sign elsewhere. Arnott for 4.5 mill. I refuse to say that Montreal is that bad a place to play that Arnott could not have been a hab for 5 mill (well worth it). Sydney Crosby said he would play in Montreal in a heartbeat.

Whenever we fail to sign someone I hear things like "Weight- over the hill performer" (All he did was help Carolina win a Cup), Jovonoski- overated etc etc.. Obviously 75% of the other teams in the league chasing them did not think so?

In closing let me say this. If these overpaid millionaires are so sensitive that they worry about the media, or fans..or an extra 50 grand in taxes..we do not want them anyway and maybe that is the approach Gainey is using.

rwp2le · Guru

barry33 wrote:

To answer a few points..yes I am fully and fluently bilingual. Although English, I am well aware of the situation in Quebec. It is not alot unlike the situation in New Brunswick. NB is a bilingual province where it is virtually impossible here to get a decent job without speaking french and english. It is just a fact I learned to live with many years ago and rather than whine about it and make excuses, I chose to learn another language. How do you think a guy like Lacavalier felt when he moved to Tampa and could hardly speak English? If your argument is true then in theory, all french players would want to play in Montreal because it would be so hard to play in an English city? The bottom line is getting the job done. If a team is losing , no one cares if the team is riddled with injuries or bad luck..if they do not win the coach gets canned. Do your points have some legitimacy (ie language, media, taxes)? Absolutely. And I do not mean to discount them. They are factors...not reasons. However, we cannot continue to use them as a crutch or an excuse. Gainey has to be more creative. Kovalev has said that Montreal is the best city he has ever played in. Koivu the same. Doug Gilmour and Kirk Muller the same when they were there. These are world class players. Gainey is one of the most well respected hockey minds in the business. He has connections with guys like Arnott and Langenbruner, yet they chose to sign elsewhere. Arnott for 4.5 mill. I refuse to say that Montreal is that bad a place to play that Arnott could not have been a hab for 5 mill (well worth it). Sydney Crosby said he would play in Montreal in a heartbeat. Whenever we fail to sign someone I hear things like "Weight- over the hill performer" (All he did was help Carolina win a Cup), Jovonoski- overated etc etc.. Obviously 75% of the other teams in the league chasing them did not think so? In closing let me say this. If these overpaid millionaires are so sensitive that they worry about the media, or fans..or an extra 50 grand in taxes..we do not want them anyway and maybe that is the approach Gainey is using.

Very nicely said Barry. Kovalev did sign here for less than he was offered in a few other cities, because of the fans. When players like this talk about our team the way they do, why would others resist? Are the Habs players not "gods" in the city of Montreal?

Muller93 · Guru

barry33 wrote:

To answer a few points..yes I am fully and fluently bilingual. Although English, I am well aware of the situation in Quebec. It is not alot unlike the situation in New Brunswick. NB is a bilingual province where it is virtually impossible here to get a decent job without speaking french and english. It is just a fact I learned to live with many years ago and rather than whine about it and make excuses, I chose to learn another language. How do you think a guy like Lacavalier felt when he moved to Tampa and could hardly speak English? If your argument is true then in theory, all french players would want to play in Montreal because it would be so hard to play in an English city? The bottom line is getting the job done. If a team is losing , no one cares if the team is riddled with injuries or bad luck..if they do not win the coach gets canned. Do your points have some legitimacy (ie language, media, taxes)? Absolutely. And I do not mean to discount them. They are factors...not reasons. However, we cannot continue to use them as a crutch or an excuse. Gainey has to be more creative. Kovalev has said that Montreal is the best city he has ever played in. Koivu the same. Doug Gilmour and Kirk Muller the same when they were there. These are world class players. Gainey is one of the most well respected hockey minds in the business. He has connections with guys like Arnott and Langenbruner, yet they chose to sign elsewhere. Arnott for 4.5 mill. I refuse to say that Montreal is that bad a place to play that Arnott could not have been a hab for 5 mill (well worth it). Sydney Crosby said he would play in Montreal in a heartbeat. Whenever we fail to sign someone I hear things like "Weight- over the hill performer" (All he did was help Carolina win a Cup), Jovonoski- overated etc etc.. Obviously 75% of the other teams in the league chasing them did not think so? In closing let me say this. If these overpaid millionaires are so sensitive that they worry about the media, or fans..or an extra 50 grand in taxes..we do not want them anyway and maybe that is the approach Gainey is using.

Well Barry...you likely learned French out of nescesity(?). I don't know what you do for a living, but I imagine it was sink or swim for you. How many companies were banging on your door I wonder??? I severly doubt that you would just choose to suck it up and learn french if 15-20 other companies offered you equal pay and job satisfaction. Of course who knows...maybe you are one of the rare ones who just loves a challange.

If you are like most english speaking in NB, and you want a government job...you have no choice really. In fact, it is such a political cornerstone in NB that many private companies would prefer bilingualism regardless of skill.

Difference between your world and the NHL is that high profile free agents have 15-20 high paying job offers...learning a second language is extremely difficult after the age of 25 and just gets harder with each passing year (this is a research proven fact...in fact impossibe in a percentage of the adult population...again a proven fact...something to do with the language development areas in the left side of the brain).

I don't care what you say, for every 10 quality free agents...nine of them would prefer not to put up with the media hotstove in Montreal. Koivu's, Muller's, Gilmour's are the rare ones...not the norm's. Gainey new this coming in so I am assuming he has a plan.

So in some respects I agree with you...if Arnott cannot handle the foolish media...we don't need him. As Gainey has said..."we need someone who likes spice". Unfortunately not many people like jalapeneo sandwhiches...or poutine