KOIVU: PERSONAL BIASED ASIDE PLEASE

Key Lime · Guru

KOIVU: PERSONAL BIASED ASIDE PLEASE

Habtastic · Guru

He is exhausted. He has been over-used all season and he had an incredibly tiring and emotional Olympics. Gainey needs to sit him for a game or two and say he has a 'lower body injury' or something, but only when Markov is back. The guy also is getting chance after chance, but his confidence is low because he is not putting it in the net. Gainey has to get another top center this summer to take the pressure off Koivu and reduce his ice-time. Koivu will bounce back, he just needs to recuperate.

Habtastic

ray · Senior Member

Love to sit him for a few, but we just don't have the depth and especially at center. I love this guy, but tonight was enough. You just got a huge (maybe too much) contract, step up and be our captain and lead this team into the playoffs, please.

PS stop taking too many stupid penalties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AB Habman · Guru

Enough of the excusses. We have alot of tired players on our team that Gainey would like to rest but we need all our horses and ponies. Also Key Lime, you'll probably get away with this post because you're being critical of Saks after usually praising him. Don't understand it but there you have it.

Also, to expand on what your saying, why does Saks spin around. He still loses the puck or falls. It's just not effective. Maybe, he thinks he's Denis Savard. The probelm is, he doesn't have the puck on his stick so he looks like a figure skater.

Power · Veteran Member

Yes, Saks has played like amateur(taking stupid penalties and so on) for while now(lets say that he is exhausted because of Olympics or whatever). I like to ask the reasons or excusses for the rest of the team playing so poorly, because you can´t blame just one player for this degradation where Habs are right now.

Ando · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

...First, let's agree that Koivu has had a very dissapointing year (Duh!)

Some possible reasons: Is he just fatigued? Has he totally lost confidence in the team's chances? Is he hurt? He looks injured. Is it the pressure of the new contract? Does he have personal issues? What the heck is it?

What's this??? Saint Saku Smurf having a bad year? Getting chucked around like a rag-doll? Totally ineffective???

Oh such bold and provocative statements! Who could have ever forecasted such a fate?

That would have been prophetic!!!

...if I could be so bold though as to offer up one more "possible reason" for your list Keyz...Maybe Saku has been a 'titch' over-rated here???

hockeyman · Senior Member

Koivu needs support down the middle from this team. Forget about Ribeiro. If he(Ribs) is offered a new contract over the summer I will lose respect for Gainey. Problem is Koivu tries to do too much and it is sometimes more than he can handle.

Key Lime · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

Enough of the excusses. We have alot of tired players on our team that Gainey would like to rest but we need all our horses and ponies. Also Key Lime, you'll probably get away with this post because you're being critical of Saks after usually praising him. Don't understand it but there you have it. Also, to expand on what your saying, why does Saks spin around. He still loses the puck or falls. It's just not effective. Maybe, he thinks he's Denis Savard. The probelm is, he doesn't have the puck on his stick so he looks like a figure skater.

AB, As I said I am and will remain a Koivu supporter. What am I getting away with exactly? Please read my entire post because it seems you totally disregard some of my staements.I wrote this post because Saks seems unrecognizable out there and I'm wondering what it could be.

Unlike you and And-o, I recognize that he's our captain for the next 3 years whether I love it or hate it. I would rather try accept that he's not a Crosby and wish the best for him because I want this team to win. There's obviuosly something wrong with him, just like Zednik, Ryder and company. I'm trying to understand the WHY?

I interpret your posts as if you are saying Koivu has been playing like this all his career???This is the worst I've ever seen him play. Let's be honest and admit that. Does he or did he ever deserve to sign that 3 year deal? No, it's not justified. BUT the amount of money a player recieves will always be contested. In my opinion, he doesn't deserve more than 2.5 mil. but I stated that the day he signed.

P.S. Ando and AB, how about answering my questions rather than adding to the fact that he's playing so poorly? All you guys need is a spark and you let that fire burn forever without answering the real questions. READ THE TITLE OF MY POST NEXT TIME.

Ando · Guru

Fair enough Key Lime!

I think it is obvious that Saku Koivu needs a significant rest period (at least two months) and a very strict fitness regiment. He also desperately needs to gain about 20-30 pounds (mostly muscle).

Finally...when he is fit to return...his icetime should NEVER exceed 15 minutes per game!

I might go so far as to say that Gainey/Carbo should consider dropping Koivu into a third line role for times that the team might need some spark and jump.

Key Lime · Guru

Ando wrote:

Fair enough Key Lime! I think it is obvious that Saku Koivu needs a significant rest period (at least two months) and a very strict fitness regiment. He also desperately needs to gain about 20-30 pounds (mostly muscle). Finally...when he is fit to return...his icetime should NEVER exceed 15 minutes per game! I might go so far as to say that Gainey/Carbo should consider dropping Koivu into a third line role for times that the team might need some spark and jump.

Guess what? I agree with most of that...BUT we can't have Saks out of the line up now. Sure make him play on another line and replace him with Pleks if that's what it takes. Reduce his ice time, like you said. Concerning the fitness regiment, I totally agree, he needs to toughen up with 10-15 pounds of MUSCLE but in the off-season. That might work but not more, that would just slow him down even more. So, from what I read, you think it's more having to do with his physical conditioning...he needs to be utilized much less.

Ando · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

...from what I read, you think it's more having to do with his physical conditioning...

Actually Key...I think it has more to do with physical limitations (as opposed to physical conditioning). As I have said all along...Saku just doesn't fit the mold...simple as that!

...honestly...it amazes me how many are just noticing these things now. How many times does Saku hit the ice in a game (I lost count at 6 last night)? How often is he simply tossed aside in the corner?

My question for Key Lime is...assuming Saku somehow bursts out of this +20 game funk, can he credibly sustain wearing the 'C'...especially when it seems as obvious as sunshine that Sheldon Souray is the real leader of the Montreal Canadiens (with Chris Higgins knocking on that door as well)???

Muller93 · Guru

Relax boys. This team has been horrid since November. Blame Koivu if you want but remember...this is the same team that had Theo playing like a 10 year old girl for half the season

This is the same team that has a fat lazy out of shape Zednik farting around.

The same team that has a frustrated ineffective Kovalev playing.

The same team that has a feable useless second line center actually supposedly being the set-up man for Kovalev...right!

The same team that had Souray playing like an asylum escapee for half the season.

The same team that relies on Boullion as our most effective and consistent defensman(????).

The same team that has a guy named BONK with ONE....ONE goal all season( and if you think the trade was bad...think again,,,I would trade Garon for Huet straight up).

Guys this team has lost confidence in any ability to win. This team is in need of a couple of off-season FA and a couple of guys let loose( Ribby, Zednik, Bonk).

Ya Ya blame Koivu if you like. But bottom line is Gainey inherited a buch of misfits and will require 2 more seasons to sort the mess out. Koivu will be one of the few still around when they win the cup in 2-3 years( along with Markov, Kovalev, Higgins, Plekanec).

Am I happy with Koivu of late....NO NO NO! But let's not act like little foolish boys and girls here...This TEAM is not good. I always said CJ was a good coach...you can see what the problem was now EH? Unfortunately CJ had to go and the team has actually been better since his departure. But this team still stinks.

Key Lime · Guru

Ando wrote:

Key Lime wrote: ...from what I read, you think it's more having to do with his physical conditioning... Actually Key...I think it has more to do with physical limitations (as opposed to physical conditioning). As I have said all along...Saku just doesn't fit the mold...simple as that! ...honestly...it amazes me how many are just noticing these things now. How many times does Saku hit the ice in a game (I lost count at 6 last night)? How often is he simply tossed aside in the corner? My question for Key Lime is...assuming Saku somehow bursts out of this +20 game funk, can he credibly sustain wearing the 'C'...especially when it seems as obvious as sunshine that Sheldon Souray is the real leader of the Montreal Canadiens (with Chris Higgins knocking on that door as well)???

No..leave Sheldon be. He doesn't seem like the type of player who needs one more thing to think about. He can look like an All-Star one night and average the next mixed in with some brain farts. He is the only player who tried his best to turn his season around and succeeded. No added pressure.

Higgins is potentially captain material but not yet.

It's like Muller said and I repeat it over and over. This team is not a contender. They're a middle of the pack team that needs 3 - 4 ingredients needed in the recipe to become a contender. At the moment,we rely on players to score goals when it never was thier forte since they cracked the NHL. It's like asking my immigrant father to help me with an essay. He can do it but to what point?

Nil d · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

I've always been and will continue to a Koivu supporter. I ask all the Kiovu bashers not to start a war of words byt give your unbiased opions. If not, don't bother. Here it is: First, let's agree that Koivu has had a very dissapointing year (Duh!) I've been watching him closely in the last 5 games and I'm shocked. It doesn't even look like Koivu on the ice. He seems physically weak. Have you noticed that he has trouble skating and not falling on every shift? I've never seen him look so physically weak in all his career. I've seen him in person and he has tree trunks as legs but it looks almost like he has something preventing him to get those legs moving. He hesitates every time he has puck possession. I can go on but the bottom line is he really doesn't seem like Saks. Some possible reasons: Is he just fatigued? Has he totally lost confidence in the team's chances? Is he hurt? He looks injured. Is it the pressure of the new contract? Does he have personal issues? What the heck is it?

Key, my reply is in And-o's thread.

I agree with you to a point, but a few bad games does not wash out Saku's entire season. His stats are above his career average.

davidb · Guru

My Unbiased opinion:

He looks very very tired

He does not have the winger support to help him

Does anyone notice he falls down alot

He takes too many stupid penalties, but he is not alone on that one

He looks like a few others overworked, under achieving, and just plain tired

I would be posting the same thing about Kovy too

plouf · Guru

Ando wrote:

Key Lime wrote: ...from what I read, you think it's more having to do with his physical conditioning... Actually Key...I think it has more to do with physical limitations (as opposed to physical conditioning). As I have said all along...Saku just doesn't fit the mold...simple as that! ...honestly...it amazes me how many are just noticing these things now. How many times does Saku hit the ice in a game (I lost count at 6 last night)? How often is he simply tossed aside in the corner? My question for Key Lime is...assuming Saku somehow bursts out of this +20 game funk, can he credibly sustain wearing the 'C'...especially when it seems as obvious as sunshine that Sheldon Souray is the real leader of the Montreal Canadiens (with Chris Higgins knocking on that door as well)???

Whoah there And-o. Saku's in a 20 game funk, fine. How about Souray's 50-odd game funk we're just seeing him emerge from? Is that also unforgivable?

The bottom line is pretty much every player on this team has had at least a 20+ game funk this year. For some reason this team has not played consistently as a unit this year. You could blame CJ, you could blame Gainey, you could blame the captain, etc...but the truth is these same three had a team overachieving last year and now they are underachieving with a somewhat better lineup (and one that seems more suited to the new NHL). The answers are not so simple as saying it's Saku's fault. Even the other night, in one of his poorer games, he was setting people up for chances they weren't finishing. As many have pointed out, in his offensive funk he has been one of our better defensive 5 on 5 players and is winning more faceoffs than anyone else. Some people have been criticizing his effort and heart, but I don't think that's it either. He's in a funk, maybe it's partly physical, because he'd be better handling less of a load, maybe it's a confidence thing. This stuff happens. Iginla himself (one of the best captains in the league in my opinion, and certainly a more impressive talent and physical specimen than Koivu) opened this season in a 20 game funk, and his team struggled too. Should he have been stripped of the captaincy? Should the coach have been fired? Some are arguing that Iginla is still not out of his funk. I don't agree. The guy has no supporting offensive cast.

Remember last year? Koivu also wore down late last year. But he came through in crunch time, as our leading scorer in the playoffs. With a cracked Rib and all (read that how you want to).

I think you're right that Koivu is exactly the kind of player who will wear down for part of every season if he's not given a lesser role, especially as he gets older. So on this thin, small, struggling team, he will always have slumps. But with a better supporting cast, Koivu is a key player that any team would love to have right now. And with a better centre to go with him than Ribeiro, he wouldn't have to carry the load of top all-around forward on the team, which I don't think he's up to.

As for his salary. 4.5 mil is not what you pay your top all-around forward. They get 6-7 million in this league. 4.5 mil is what your #3 and #4 forwards get. I think Saku is a very solid player when he's not expected to carry the entire team.

And-o I think you're wrong that everyone on this board overrates Koivu. I think most people think he is a very good player with heart. Not necessarily a consistent game-breaker. A guy any team would want on their top two lines, and a big part of the future core of a cup-winning team. Thinking Koivu is a key piece in the puzzle is not the same as thinking he is the answer to all our prayers.

Key Lime · Guru

plouf wrote:

Ando wrote: Key Lime wrote: ...from what I read, you think it's more having to do with his physical conditioning... Actually Key...I think it has more to do with physical limitations (as opposed to physical conditioning). As I have said all along...Saku just doesn't fit the mold...simple as that! ...honestly...it amazes me how many are just noticing these things now. How many times does Saku hit the ice in a game (I lost count at 6 last night)? How often is he simply tossed aside in the corner? My question for Key Lime is...assuming Saku somehow bursts out of this +20 game funk, can he credibly sustain wearing the 'C'...especially when it seems as obvious as sunshine that Sheldon Souray is the real leader of the Montreal Canadiens (with Chris Higgins knocking on that door as well)??? Whoah there And-o. Saku's in a 20 game funk, fine. How about Souray's 50-odd game funk we're just seeing him emerge from? Is that also unforgivable? The bottom line is pretty much every player on this team has had at least a 20+ game funk this year. For some reason this team has not played consistently as a unit this year. You could blame CJ, you could blame Gainey, you could blame the captain, etc...but the truth is these same three had a team overachieving last year and now they are underachieving with a somewhat better lineup (and one that seems more suited to the new NHL). The answers are not so simple as saying it's Saku's fault. Even the other night, in one of his poorer games, he was setting people up for chances they weren't finishing. As many have pointed out, in his offensive funk he has been one of our better defensive 5 on 5 players and is winning more faceoffs than anyone else. Some people have been criticizing his effort and heart, but I don't think that's it either. He's in a funk, maybe it's partly physical, because he'd be better handling less of a load, maybe it's a confidence thing. This stuff happens. Iginla himself (one of the best captains in the league in my opinion, and certainly a more impressive talent and physical specimen than Koivu) opened this season in a 20 game funk, and his team struggled too. Should he have been stripped of the captaincy? Should the coach have been fired? Some are arguing that Iginla is still not out of his funk. I don't agree. The guy has no supporting offensive cast. Remember last year? Koivu also wore down late last year. But he came through in crunch time, as our leading scorer in the playoffs. With a cracked Rib and all (read that how you want to). I think you're right that Koivu is exactly the kind of player who will wear down for part of every season if he's not given a lesser role, especially as he gets older. So on this thin, small, struggling team, he will always have slumps. But with a better supporting cast, Koivu is a key player that any team would love to have right now. And with a better centre to go with him than Ribeiro, he wouldn't have to carry the load of top all-around forward on the team, which I don't think he's up to. As for his salary. 4.5 mil is not what you pay your top all-around forward. They get 6-7 million in this league. 4.5 mil is what your #3 and #4 forwards get. I think Saku is a very solid player when he's not expected to carry the entire team. And-o I think you're wrong that everyone on this board overrates Koivu. I think most people think he is a very good player with heart. Not necessarily a consistent game-breaker. A guy any team would want on their top two lines, and a big part of the future core of a cup-winning team. Thinking Koivu is a key piece in the puzzle is not the same as thinking he is the answer to all our prayers.

OK I'm copying this post and saving it on another document. Not only do I agree with all that you have said but I've also learned a few things from it. You're the real Guru of the bunch. Look at when you wrote this post...3:50 pm. It's now 7:45 and no one has had a come back because we know it's the truth deep down.....anyone want to give it a shot?

plouf · Guru

Unfortunately there's a factual error in my post. Iginla and Calgary's early funk was actually only for the first month, say a dozen games or so.

Still, he hasn't produced anywhere near what was expected of him this season, with 50 points so far in a much more offensive league.

Muller93 · Guru

Plouf man. That post was perfect. Exactly what I have felt all along. I guess I have not been able to put it down as well. No way the Saku bashers can argue that logical, non biased well thought out post here.

I guess I have to learn to avoid sinking to the lower levels when defending Koivu. It comes off biased. So let me just say...everything Plouf said...that's how I feel.

AB Habman · Guru

OK from here on in, Plouf has been designated for all Pro-Saks comments.

Key Lime · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

OK from here on in, Plouf has been designated for all Pro-Saks comments.

Does this designate you for all Anti-Saks comments?