Is Gainey above average?

AB Habman · Guru

Is Gainey above average?

heet_150 · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

My point is, why do some posters think Gainey is the greatest GM? Is he patient?...yes, has he made bad trades?....yes, Has he made bad signings?....yes. I'm confussed to why he can't start the adding of quality players now rather than fillers like Downey and Simpson? Personally, I think Gainey is an average GM. No, I don't want him fired or shot! I'm just trying to rationalize that he is over-rated to many on this board.

I personally don't think he is the greatest GM ever, but, like some others on this board have said, with considerably more eloquence, he is what they have. All we can do as Hab fans is hope that what he did in Dallas is no fluke. He built a team that is still a winner today, with some of the personel that he put in place still there.

Habtastic · Guru

Gainey is a GM that brings the same things he did as a player - intangibles. He brings intelligence, class, leadership, accountability, and loyalty to the team. This is what he has done to turn this franchise around... just remember what it s was like around 2000.

- He has changed the employees and now has strong hockey people in every area.

- He has been a big part of turning an empty Farm Team into one of the best in the League. We are rated 6th overall in Hockey Future's Scouting and that does not include some of the excellent young players we currently have on the roster.

- He has taken a team full of patchwork players and we now have a young, improving roster with some depth to it. He also brought us Kovalev for next to nothing.

- He has won two play-off series with a team that was not making the playoffs.

- He made some signings that people were ecstatic about at the time and those that did not work he made amends by trading or waving them, freeing up lots of money for free-agent signings this summer, as well as giving opportunties to younger players.

- He has an excellent record on the Waiver Wire.

- He was a major player bringing in the New NHL and has a lot of power and respect around the league and in Montreal.

- This is now a team that Free-agents are more willing to come to whereas in the past they would not.

- We are a team poised for the future that is getting better every year. Carolina and NY were terrible for many years while good people were at the helm. Our transition has been faster than there's and our good future will last a long time because of the youth of our team and our quality of prospects.

There are probably more things that he has done that we do not know about or that I have not mentioned. But rest assured, we are in GREAT hands.

Habtastic

davidb · Guru

Habtastic, I could not have said it better myself. Between you and barry you both have it all sewed up

habs93 · Veteran Member

Habtastic - Don't forget when Gainey went to bat for Brisebois when he was getting booed by the so-called Bell Centre faithful......

Johab · Guru

probably one of the classiest guestures ive seen in hockey. What a stand-up thing to do! And it really got the fans off his back and improved his play. Im stull upset about seeing him leave. I REALLY liked the guy and he liked the city. He really isnt THAT bad of a defenseman. He hd his times yes where his +/- was...well...AWFUL...but he was consistantly our top offensive defenseman and wasnt bad defensively either. And on a team that lacks offense, he is missed!

AB Habman · Guru

Still, all those things mentioned and are we that much better than three seasons ago? Any average GM could of done those things. In fact, Savard got the ball rolling before Gainey jumped in. It's possible with Savard after the great things he did for Sens, could have us as an elete team already. I'm not trivializing what Gainey has done, just not so sure it took a genious to do it. Most GMs in this league could do what Gainey is over that much time, don't you think?

How about we monitor a team like Florida. Keenan took over before the lockout. I have a feeling he'll turn that team around and be more competitive than us in two seasons. Not saying we'll be lousy but that they'll be better. The reason I say that is because he'll be more pro-active and bring in the personal he needs sooner than Gainey who may be too passive. Time will tell but remember this post.

Anyways, I'm not going to change anyones mind about this because Gainey seems to be held in high regard for one Cup in 12 years as GM with Dallas. Remember, many other GMs won Cups in that time also. Gainey is a good GM for the Habs, He's better than many we've had but when compared to the whole league, probably average.

plouf · Guru

Thank you Habtastic for the voice of reason.

AB Habman · Guru

plouf wrote:

Thank you Habtastic for the voice of reason.

The voice of reason would be an objective one! Tell you what, I'll eat my words if we win a Cup in the next few years and say he is above average if you admit that he's average if we miss the playoffs this season. Even the Ducks went to the finals. Who cares about two playoff series wins against the same team? That could be as much of a fluke as the Ducks who had more success.

All I'm saying Plouf is that, he isn't as great as many on this board say he is. That isn't that unreasonable.

plouf · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

plouf wrote:
Thank you Habtastic for the voice of reason.

The voice of reason would be an objective one! Tell you what, I'll eat my words if we win a Cup in the next few years and say he is above average if you admit that he's average if we miss the playoffs this season. Even the Ducks went to the finals. Who cares about two playoff series wins against the same team? That could be as much of a fluke as the Ducks who had more success.
All I'm saying Plouf is that, he isn't as great as many on this board say he is. That isn't that unreasonable.

Yep, and I found Habtastic's post objective. He is making a reasoned argument about what Gainey has done so far.

I don't find your post particularly objective since you can't resist making it partly revolve around the Koivu and Ribeiro issue in some fashion or another.

You may be right...but I don't think it's so gutsy of you to give me even odds on a cup win vs. the playoffs (or not) this year. Care to sweeten it for me somehow? Any special tributes to Saku you'd like to make?

mdmrules · Member

Again AB... He took over the helm in may of 2003 which would make it less than three years and removing one year makes it less than 2 years. The lockout year can't possibly count. No one did anything during the lockout... it was a lockout!

What has he done you ask? Serioulsy do some research before you ask that question... What did he do in Dallas? maybe while you are finding the changes he made in Mtl. you can look at the winner he helped build in Dallas too. They were no fluke when they won the cup... they were built to win year in, year out.

I think my point is that he has a record of success... no one can doubt that... Sheldon Souray called him the best boss in the world... so I think that it's a no brainer that he is an "above average" GM.

I also have to say that it is pointless to discuss anything if all you have to say is negative things (its way to easy to point out failings). Quit being the Debbie Downer of the board man. Is BG completely flawless? NO WAY! But in 2 years I don't know what more a person could expect.

rwp2le · Guru

I believe Gainey is the best GM we have had in a long time. Is he great? I have no idea, but better than our past GMs. I am very interested in what Barry has to say about this. He has a little more insite than the rest of us.

heet_150 · Guru

rwp2le wrote:

I believe Gainey is the best GM we have had in a long time. Is he great? I have no idea, but better than our past GMs.

I want to add what rwp2le wrote to my above post. Thanks rwp2le.

AB Habman · Guru

rwp2le wrote:

I believe Gainey is the best GM we have had in a long time. Is he great? I have no idea, but better than our past GMs. I am very interested in what Barry has to say about this. He has a little more insite than the rest of us.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. He's a good GM for the Habs but probably average through out the whole league.

Whoever is saying it's not fair to count the whole lockout year is being silly for the sake of making him seem better. Does that mean Gainey didn't do his job then? There was GM activity before the lockout and after during that year where many GMs did their thing. Teams like Rangers and Canes tranformed their teams almost exclusively during that year. There was player movement before the lockout and after during the off season. All GMs were at the helm.

It's been almost three years since he took over as GM.

Again, if you want to go back before the Habs, he was GM for the Stars for 12 years. Madano proceeded him and he built around him. He did good things but it took him a long time. Many GMs won Cups in those 12 years.

I actually like him, He's what the Doctor ordered for us but to say he is a genious is silly. He's made good and bad decisions that balanced out. That's why we are only marginally better on paper and in the standings than three seasons ago. Sure he brought in Kovy but has that made a difference? Even a little squirt like Brier has had more of an impact for his team and he was a waiver pick. I already made my case in above posts so lets just see where our brilliant GM takes us and how long it takes.

plouf · Guru

Who said Gainey was a genius? You asked if he was above average.

Most of us seem to think he's a very good GM who could be the best we've had in over a decade at least, and who has the kind of profile needed to insist upon the long-term strategy Montreal has lacked. Although even he is probably under an absurd amount of media pressure to do certain things.

As for 1 cup in 12 years. I bet the Minnesota North Stars would've taken it. So would I at this point, given that we haven't seen one in 13.

-- Edited by plouf at 15:18, 2006-03-18

AB Habman · Guru

plouf wrote:

Who said Gainey was a genius? You asked if he was above average. Most of us seem to think he's a very good GM who could be the best we've had in over a decade at least, and who has the kind of profile needed to insist upon the long-term strategy Montreal has lacked. Although even he is probably under an absurd amount of media pressure to do certain things. As for 1 cup in 12 years. I bet the Minnesota North Stars would've taken it. So would I at this point, given that we haven't seen one in 13.-- Edited by plouf at 15:18, 2006-03-18

Plouf, it's what I interpet from reading some posts. I'm just trying to keep this objective so some come back down to reality. It's a struggle to find middle ground because a guy named Plouf twists my posts around with back hand remarks like stating I'm not a voice of reason. No problem though, I can play your game

By saying he's a very good GM is a stretch in comparison to all of them. Probably average in that regard. By saying he has been our best GM over the last decade is another story and easy to swallow.

plouf · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

plouf wrote: Who said Gainey was a genius? You asked if he was above average. Most of us seem to think he's a very good GM who could be the best we've had in over a decade at least, and who has the kind of profile needed to insist upon the long-term strategy Montreal has lacked. Although even he is probably under an absurd amount of media pressure to do certain things. As for 1 cup in 12 years. I bet the Minnesota North Stars would've taken it. So would I at this point, given that we haven't seen one in 13.-- Edited by plouf at 15:18, 2006-03-18 Plouf, it's what I interpet from reading some posts. I'm just trying to keep this objective so some come back down to reality. It's a struggle to find middle ground because a guy named Plouf twists my posts around with back hand remarks like stating I'm not a voice of reason. No problem though, I can play your game By saying he's a very good GM is a stretch in comparison to all of them. Probably average in that regard. By saying he has been our best GM over the last decade is another story and easy to swallow.

My game?

I believe you referred to me as a "politician" who wouldn't give you a straight answer first. I think I spewed off a few irritated posts right after reading that.

Anyway, it's clear we disagree about just about everything so it's hard not to butt heads once in a while.

Habtastic · Guru

I don't often challenge people here, because I don't like getting involved in board controversies and such (I am a teacher, I have enough with my students! lol), but Plouf made a good point about being "Objective and laying down a factual argument". I have laid out my facts point by point and in a simple manner to illustrate why I believe Gainey is an excellent GM and with his character, probably the best possible man we could have at the helm in Montreal at the moment. AB, or anyone else, I would like to see you counter my arguments and put forward yours in a similar manner, as to why he is only an average GM. I come to this board to learn, as much as to be entertained and speak my mind and I am hoping that you can offer me something that I might learn from. The gauntlet has been dropped... :)

Habtastic