Reasons for losing.

AB Habman · Guru

Reasons for losing.

Key Lime · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

By giving the Sak's line so much ice, it was a challenge to see how they would respond by Gainey's comments about the Habs not having a distinct first line. It was a challenge to them! They answered with no effectiveness. Gainey should of stuck with his four line concept which has been working better. Can't give Saks that much ice time because he then trys to do too much. He was actually more effective by playing less and keeping it simple. Also, a huge mistake going with the Saks line for most of the PPs. They were on for almost 2 minutes on every PP. That's way too much for a player like Saks who tires out after a 30 second shift. Our PP is more effective when Ribs and Saks share it more evenly. It makes more sense to give the centermen with the better passing capabilities and vision on the ice like Ribs more time rather than the scraps of the last ten seconds on the PP. Our PP let us down but because of the coaching error. Can someone tell me also why Saks falls so much? I was observing this and it seems he falls more than any other forward. If he was getting hooked more, the Refs are not calling anything. Is he diving more than the other players? Is he falling because he's tired and too much ice tonight? Is it because he's small and has lost a step to get away from traffic with the puck? Also, we have a bad record with Markov out of the line-up.

Well, the game I saw made me conclude that Ribs stunk except for the last 3 minutes of the game. One of the major reasons for Koivu's line being so ineffective was placing Ryder back on that line. Why? Ryder is finding himself right now. He looks lost and is lacking the confidence he once had. That line looked quicker and more dangerous in last few games with Zed on it.

In any case, we can go on and on about why we think they lost but when you score 4 goals in 3 games, it kind of sums it all up. The offense needs a wake up call and please either leave Ryder on the Bonk line and make him play on the PP or just rest him but don't put him on the Koivu line until he finds his game. Maybe a goal on the PP will wake him up.

AB Habman · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

AB Habman wrote: By giving the Sak's line so much ice, it was a challenge to see how they would respond by Gainey's comments about the Habs not having a distinct first line. It was a challenge to them! They answered with no effectiveness. Gainey should of stuck with his four line concept which has been working better. Can't give Saks that much ice time because he then trys to do too much. He was actually more effective by playing less and keeping it simple. Also, a huge mistake going with the Saks line for most of the PPs. They were on for almost 2 minutes on every PP. That's way too much for a player like Saks who tires out after a 30 second shift. Our PP is more effective when Ribs and Saks share it more evenly. It makes more sense to give the centermen with the better passing capabilities and vision on the ice like Ribs more time rather than the scraps of the last ten seconds on the PP. Our PP let us down but because of the coaching error. Can someone tell me also why Saks falls so much? I was observing this and it seems he falls more than any other forward. If he was getting hooked more, the Refs are not calling anything. Is he diving more than the other players? Is he falling because he's tired and too much ice tonight? Is it because he's small and has lost a step to get away from traffic with the puck? Also, we have a bad record with Markov out of the line-up. Well, the game I saw made me conclude that Ribs stunk except for the last 3 minutes of the game. One of the major reasons for Koivu's line being so ineffective was placing Ryder back on that line. Why? Ryder is finding himself right now. He looks lost and is lacking the confidence he once had. That line looked quicker and more dangerous in last few games with Zed on it. In any case, we can go on and on about why we think they lost but when you score 4 goals in 3 games, it kind of sums it all up. The offense needs a wake up call and please either leave Ryder on the Bonk line and make him play on the PP or just rest him but don't put him on the Koivu line until he finds his game. Maybe a goal on the PP will wake him up.

key lime, I do agree with the Ryder thing. He needs to be taken off the PP and top line until he finds his game. How can you say though, that the Ribs line stunk when they had such limited ice time and especially on the PP. Ribs scored late but Perez took a really stupid penalty when we were still in it.

I think the problem is Gainey not going with a balanced attack of all four lines. That's when we seem to scratch out goals. Without real first line players, we seem to lose games when Gainey gives that line too much ice.

barry33 · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

AB Habman wrote: By giving the Sak's line so much ice, it was a challenge to see how they would respond by Gainey's comments about the Habs not having a distinct first line. It was a challenge to them! They answered with no effectiveness. Gainey should of stuck with his four line concept which has been working better. Can't give Saks that much ice time because he then trys to do too much. He was actually more effective by playing less and keeping it simple. Also, a huge mistake going with the Saks line for most of the PPs. They were on for almost 2 minutes on every PP. That's way too much for a player like Saks who tires out after a 30 second shift. Our PP is more effective when Ribs and Saks share it more evenly. It makes more sense to give the centermen with the better passing capabilities and vision on the ice like Ribs more time rather than the scraps of the last ten seconds on the PP. Our PP let us down but because of the coaching error. Can someone tell me also why Saks falls so much? I was observing this and it seems he falls more than any other forward. If he was getting hooked more, the Refs are not calling anything. Is he diving more than the other players? Is he falling because he's tired and too much ice tonight? Is it because he's small and has lost a step to get away from traffic with the puck? Also, we have a bad record with Markov out of the line-up. Well, the game I saw made me conclude that Ribs stunk except for the last 3 minutes of the game. One of the major reasons for Koivu's line being so ineffective was placing Ryder back on that line. Why? Ryder is finding himself right now. He looks lost and is lacking the confidence he once had. That line looked quicker and more dangerous in last few games with Zed on it. In any case, we can go on and on about why we think they lost but when you score 4 goals in 3 games, it kind of sums it all up. The offense needs a wake up call and please either leave Ryder on the Bonk line and make him play on the PP or just rest him but don't put him on the Koivu line until he finds his game. Maybe a goal on the PP will wake him up.

Really it is quite simple. Gainey either could not, or would not, address the Habs woeful lack of offence at the trade deadline, preferring to ride it out with what we have and hope to land something this summer. And no, I am not the only one in the hockey world shocked that Gainey did not address this. Jaques Demers and Bob Mackenzie both stated that they were surprised that BG did not find a goalscorer. So now it is incumbant upon Huet to shut the door and guys like Kovalev, Koivu (yes for 5 million a year I expect more than 14 goals) and Ribiero/Zednick and Ryder to start scoring. However I am wondering if Ryder with Begin on the 4th line will get results. Oh ya wait..all lines are equal

doodie · Veteran Member

that's exactly "RIGHT" key lime it's great to see them winning but 1-0 ,2-0, wins is not going to get you very far . that was a huge game and they get one goal these games are going to come back and bite them in the (ankle).

heet_150 · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

One of the major reasons for Koivu's line being so ineffective was placing Ryder back on that line. Why? Ryder is finding himself right now. He looks lost and is lacking the confidence he once had. That line looked quicker and more dangerous in last few games with Zed on it. In any case, we can go on and on about why we think they lost but when you score 4 goals in 3 games, it kind of sums it all up. The offense needs a wake up call and please either leave Ryder on the Bonk line and make him play on the PP or just rest him but don't put him on the Koivu line until he finds his game. Maybe a goal on the PP will wake him up.

It seems to me that Ryder has replaced Zednik as the team sad sack. Can't seem to do anything right, appears to be lost out there and looks as though he is trying his damndest to get himself out of his funk, only making matters worse. How many bad decisions did he make last night alone (3 on 1 and he shot the puck, for example)?

Desi · Senior Member

If you were Michael Ryder, would you have passed the puck to Bonk, Heetsy?

Les Canadiens sont la

heet_150 · Guru

Desi wrote:

If you were Michael Ryder, would you have passed the puck to Bonk, Heetsy? Les Canadiens sont la

Actually, I would. With only one defender back, and he was playing Ryder, yes, I would have looked for a better opportunity.

AB Habman · Guru

heet_150 wrote:

Desi wrote: If you were Michael Ryder, would you have passed the puck to Bonk, Heetsy? Les Canadiens sont la Actually, I would. With only one defender back, and he was playing Ryder, yes, I would have looked for a better opportunity.

I think one day, we will all come to agree on the fact that Ryder is one dimensional. His strong attribute is his heavy shot. Not always accurate but heavy. Doesn't have a good concept on the finer parts of the game like seeing the ice and passing to the open man.

The positive side now is that he is starting to work harder since Gainey demoted him down a few lines. I still wouldn't give up on him yet. If he could learn to use his strong frame along the boards to dig out pucks and then park himself in the crease, he could still be a factor for us.

Key Lime · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

Key Lime wrote: AB Habman wrote: By giving the Sak's line so much ice, it was a challenge to see how they would respond by Gainey's comments about the Habs not having a distinct first line. It was a challenge to them! They answered with no effectiveness. Gainey should of stuck with his four line concept which has been working better. Can't give Saks that much ice time because he then trys to do too much. He was actually more effective by playing less and keeping it simple. Also, a huge mistake going with the Saks line for most of the PPs. They were on for almost 2 minutes on every PP. That's way too much for a player like Saks who tires out after a 30 second shift. Our PP is more effective when Ribs and Saks share it more evenly. It makes more sense to give the centermen with the better passing capabilities and vision on the ice like Ribs more time rather than the scraps of the last ten seconds on the PP. Our PP let us down but because of the coaching error. Can someone tell me also why Saks falls so much? I was observing this and it seems he falls more than any other forward. If he was getting hooked more, the Refs are not calling anything. Is he diving more than the other players? Is he falling because he's tired and too much ice tonight? Is it because he's small and has lost a step to get away from traffic with the puck? Also, we have a bad record with Markov out of the line-up. Well, the game I saw made me conclude that Ribs stunk except for the last 3 minutes of the game. One of the major reasons for Koivu's line being so ineffective was placing Ryder back on that line. Why? Ryder is finding himself right now. He looks lost and is lacking the confidence he once had. That line looked quicker and more dangerous in last few games with Zed on it. In any case, we can go on and on about why we think they lost but when you score 4 goals in 3 games, it kind of sums it all up. The offense needs a wake up call and please either leave Ryder on the Bonk line and make him play on the PP or just rest him but don't put him on the Koivu line until he finds his game. Maybe a goal on the PP will wake him up. key lime, I do agree with the Ryder thing. He needs to be taken off the PP and top line until he finds his game. How can you say though, that the Ribs line stunk when they had such limited ice time and especially on the PP. Ribs scored late but Perez took a really stupid penalty when we were still in it. I think the problem is Gainey not going with a balanced attack of all four lines. That's when we seem to scratch out goals. Without real first line players, we seem to lose games when Gainey gives that line too much ice.

AB, concerning Ribs, I thought he stunk until 3 minutes left in the game and not the rest of the line. The reason I'm being so hard on Ribs is because when he was put alongside Kovy and Perez, I thought he got a SECOND CHANCE. I think he can't be allowed to have mediocre games anymore.

The 3 amigos which were Theo, Dags, and Ribs. One player is left. I would keep him on a short leash. No room for error...not fair for him, too bad...he wasted his talent for 3/5 of the season...I'm tired of players like him. This is my opinion.

AB Habman · Guru

Key Lime wrote:
The reason I'm being so hard on Ribs is because when he was put alongside Kovy and Perez, I thought he got a SECOND CHANCE. I think he can't be allowed to have mediocre games anymore. The 3 amigos which were Theo, Dags, and Ribs. One player is left. I would keep him on a short leash. No room for error...not fair for him, too bad...he wasted his talent for 3/5 of the season...I'm tired of players like him. This is my opinion.

Key Lime, I don't want any line to be mediocre. Ribs has been playing better of late but last night, that whole line didn't have its usual chemistry going. Ribs was open behind the net and half boards many times while his linemates didn't give him the puck in those circumstances. Actually also when he scored that goal, he was planted in the crease while a high blast came from the point. That's a gutzy goal if you ask me, he could of had his head taken off but hung in there and showed some great hand/eye. I make this point because he actually went to the net on many occasions before that but to no avail. Also, players like Ribs and Kovy are more effective with more ice time and last night it seems Gainey was using Saks line alot more than usual.

plouf · Guru

AB, how can you be so indulgent with Ribeiro and then call Ryder one-dimensional? Let's call a spade a spade here. Ribeiro is pretty one-dimensional at the best of times. The only reason his hitting and backchecking of late has been so memorable is because it is, well, memorable. As in, we've never seen anything like it before coming from him. So before you start ragging on Koivu again, (oops...just read your first post, "reasons for losing", too late) let's get some perspective about your hero Ribeiro here.

Bottom line is the team was out of synch last night, but still managed to create a bunch of chances. Finishing has been crappy, yes. But I don't know why the doom and gloom comes so quickly. We are 7-2-3 in our last 12. We were scoring goals in bunches until the last few games. And the team had to be tired after all those games with so little rest. So can we give them a rest and not moan so much around here?

Ando · Guru

plouf wrote:

Let's call a spade a spade here.

Yeah AB...you should call a spade a spade just like Plouf did earlier! And I quote..."Who could argue that Koivu hasn't been better since the break, missed empty nets and all?"

Hmmmmmm!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

C'mon AB...you one-sided illogical ranting and raving really is transparent! Who the heck do you think you are???...and how dare you question the production of the Habs Captain and saviour? What kinda sick and twisted freak are you anyways?

Honestly...wanting the Captain of the Montreal Canadiens to be held accountable...it really is too much!!!

ANYONE can plainly see that Saku is saving himself for the playoffs! WAKE-UP!!!

Key Lime · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

Key Lime wrote: The reason I'm being so hard on Ribs is because when he was put alongside Kovy and Perez, I thought he got a SECOND CHANCE. I think he can't be allowed to have mediocre games anymore. The 3 amigos which were Theo, Dags, and Ribs. One player is left. I would keep him on a short leash. No room for error...not fair for him, too bad...he wasted his talent for 3/5 of the season...I'm tired of players like him. This is my opinion. Key Lime, I don't want any line to be mediocre. Ribs has been playing better of late but last night, that whole line didn't have its usual chemistry going. Ribs was open behind the net and half boards many times while his linemates didn't give him the puck in those circumstances. Actually also when he scored that goal, he was planted in the crease while a high blast came from the point. That's a gutzy goal if you ask me, he could of had his head taken off but hung in there and showed some great hand/eye. I make this point because he actually went to the net on many occasions before that but to no avail. Also, players like Ribs and Kovy are more effective with more ice time and last night it seems Gainey was using Saks line alot more than usual.

I hope Ribs has success but like I said, for me, he has something to prove every single game. He's had chance after chance. This should be his last chance. There wouldn't be anyone happier than I if he profits from his chance.

Muller93 · Guru

plouf wrote:

AB, how can you be so indulgent with Ribeiro and then call Ryder one-dimensional? Let's call a spade a spade here. Ribeiro is pretty one-dimensional at the best of times. The only reason his hitting and backchecking of late has been so memorable is because it is, well, memorable. As in, we've never seen anything like it before coming from him. So before you start ragging on Koivu again, (oops...just read your first post, "reasons for losing", too late) let's get some perspective about your hero Ribeiro here. Bottom line is the team was out of synch last night, but still managed to create a bunch of chances. Finishing has been crappy, yes. But I don't know why the doom and gloom comes so quickly. We are 7-2-3 in our last 12. We were scoring goals in bunches until the last few games. And the team had to be tired after all those games with so little rest. So can we give them a rest and not moan so much around here?

HEY PLOUF. Those two guys are just bitter homeboys. Your points are well constucted and consistent. The best thing to do is ignore them. Honestly, they are not capable of a logical conversation. They Love Ribeiro....That goal was fluky and he stunk the rest of the game. He has NO DEFENSIVE CAPABILITIES AT ALL...yet somehow he should have more ice time in a close tight checking game...

Ignore them. I will not respond anymore directly to nonsense posts.

AB Habman · Guru

plouf wrote:

AB, how can you be so indulgent with Ribeiro and then call Ryder one-dimensional? Let's call a spade a spade here. Ribeiro is pretty one-dimensional at the best of times. The only reason his hitting and backchecking of late has been so memorable is because it is, well, memorable. As in, we've never seen anything like it before coming from him. So before you start ragging on Koivu again, (oops...just read your first post, "reasons for losing", too late) let's get some perspective about your hero Ribeiro here. Bottom line is the team was out of synch last night, but still managed to create a bunch of chances. Finishing has been crappy, yes. But I don't know why the doom and gloom comes so quickly. We are 7-2-3 in our last 12. We were scoring goals in bunches until the last few games. And the team had to be tired after all those games with so little rest. So can we give them a rest and not moan so much around here?

OK, it sounds like many thought Ribs was lousy and had a fluke goal. Either way, he scored and we still had a chance because of that goal until Perez took a stupid penalty.

Ryder at least is working harder and like Zed, he'll come around. I'm actually not worried about him. The guy is paid to score goals and I think he will soon enough.

My concern was more with the guys that Gainey used the most who were ineffective especially on the eight PPs. Call it ragging on Saks if you want, I'm just saying that he seems to play better with less ice time because he tends to keep it simple. Also last night, I noticed he was falling alot. He doesn't seem to do that with less ice time.

This game could of been won with some tinkering by Gainey. Firstly, I would of had two units per PP rather than one to create more energy and sustained pressure. Our PP was lousy and I concede that some of that was losing Markov on the back-end. Also, I would of had the last few lines play more. Begin and the Plecs line play with alot of intensity and they didn't get much 5 on 5 time. More balanced attack equals more energy per line. Everyone is in the game that way also.

Also, I would of had the forwards go two deep on the forecheck.

Ando · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

...they are not capable of a logical conversation. They Love Ribeiro....

Hey Mulsy...for the record AGAIN And-o would have had Ribs run outta Montreal two seasons ago!

And as for your above quote slamming AB & And-o...I respond with one of your recent pearls of wisdom......"And they are winning since Koivu signed. Wonder why?"

...the answer to your question "Wonder why" is/was/will be almost exclusively the play of Huet...augmented by some slammin PK work!

You attribute this guys success to the signing of Koivu!?!?!...and then yap about not being capable of a logical argument!?!?!? S'yeah Right...and if your Auntie had balls, she'd be your Uncle!!!

Have you considered aroma therapy???...'cause there is enough fumes wafting off some of these quotes to cure anything! Too funny!!!

Nil d · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

Those two guys are just bitter homeboys. Your points are well constucted and consistent. The best thing to do is ignore them.

Notice the resounding silence from my corner?

barry33 · Guru

Nil d wrote:

Muller93 wrote: Those two guys are just bitter homeboys. Your points are well constucted and consistent. The best thing to do is ignore them. Notice the resounding silence from my corner?

Bottom line is..our best players need to start being our best players and get over teh Olympic hangover.

AB Habman · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Nil d wrote: Muller93 wrote: Those two guys are just bitter homeboys. Your points are well constucted and consistent. The best thing to do is ignore them. Notice the resounding silence from my corner? Bottom line is..our best players need to start being our best players and get over teh Olympic hangover.

Until they do, why not go with a four line balanced attack. It won't win us games by going with players that are not producing with more ice time.

plouf · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

barry33 wrote:
Nil d wrote: Muller93 wrote: Those two guys are just bitter homeboys. Your points are well constucted and consistent. The best thing to do is ignore them. Notice the resounding silence from my corner? Bottom line is..our best players need to start being our best players and get over teh Olympic hangover.
Until they do, why not go with a four line balanced attack. It won't win us games by going with players that are not producing with more ice time.

Well I realize that defensive hockey is currently taking a hit on this board, but AB it may just be that in a tight game where we are playing the trap, the Koivu-Higgins line is just more effective in that situation.

I'm not saying I agree with the strategy necessarily, but it does seem fitting that if you play a defensive system in a close game, you don't play the likes of Ribeiro or Perezhogin quite as much as you might in other situations.
Remember that Gainey chose Streit over Simpson in this game because of Tampa's team speed. Ribeiro's one of our slowest forwards, so this was not necessarily the ideal game to give him tons of ice time. Just a thought.

AB Habman · Guru

plouf wrote:

AB Habman wrote: barry33 wrote: Nil d wrote: Muller93 wrote: Those two guys are just bitter homeboys. Your points are well constucted and consistent. The best thing to do is ignore them. Notice the resounding silence from my corner? Bottom line is..our best players need to start being our best players and get over teh Olympic hangover. Until they do, why not go with a four line balanced attack. It won't win us games by going with players that are not producing with more ice time. Well I realize that defensive hockey is currently taking a hit on this board, but AB it may just be that in a tight game where we are playing the trap, the Koivu-Higgins line is just more effective in that situation. I'm not saying I agree with the strategy necessarily, but it does seem fitting that if you play a defensive system in a close game, you don't play the likes of Ribeiro or Perezhogin quite as much as you might in other situations. Remember that Gainey chose Streit over Simpson in this game because of Tampa's team speed. Ribeiro's one of our slowest forwards, so this was not necessarily the ideal game to give him tons of ice time. Just a thought.

Plouf, I'm not saying, play Ribs more, I'm saying play every line more and not play the trap!

plouf · Guru

Well ok, that's a different story. I get you now.

I'm not big on the trap myself, and it's fairly obvious that the goal-scoring droughts, for example, aren't just about players underachieving but also about the limitations of the system for producing any kind of offense whatsoever. Same goes for Huet. He's doing great, but he's certainly helped by a stifling defensive system that takes away people skating with speed into the zone.

There was a good argument made that Gainey's mostly trying to instill defensive accountability first, getting the team into a system and battening down the hatches before focusing on offense. Seems believable. Anyway, the stupid trap is working pretty well, so I'm not complaining for the time being. Our results are much improved. In the long run I'd like to see a more offensive system though, because that's what our personnel fits with.

barry33 · Guru

plouf wrote:

Well ok, that's a different story. I get you now. I'm not big on the trap myself, and it's fairly obvious that the goal-scoring droughts, for example, aren't just about players underachieving but also about the limitations of the system for producing any kind of offense whatsoever. Same goes for Huet. He's doing great, but he's certainly helped by a stifling defensive system that takes away people skating with speed into the zone. There was a good argument made that Gainey's mostly trying to instill defensive accountability first, getting the team into a system and battening down the hatches before focusing on offense. Seems believable. Anyway, the stupid trap is working pretty well, so I'm not complaining for the time being. Our results are much improved. In the long run I'd like to see a more offensive system though, because that's what our personnel fits with.

As I stated in another post, I don't care. But what bothers me is that earlier in the season people on this board (even when we were winning) and guys like Kovalev whined that we had all this speed that was not being utilized. I can tell you that nothing nullifies your team's speed like making them play a good old trap. Guys like Perzhogan look like their feet are in molasses now. But we are finding ways to win and Plouf makes a good point. Let's clean up our defensive act first.