Totally different freguency dividing this board

AB Habman · Guru

Totally different freguency dividing this board

JohnM · Guru

You and a couple of others have made it quite clear over this year and last that you dislike Saku. I posted the Saku haters question to see if you are also the kind of fans that boo him for idiotic reasons.

That's all.

barry33 · Guru

I agree actually...I was told by a few people on this board when Julien got fired to "Not take it personally". I had one even "offer me a tissue". The ironic thing is that And-O was one of the guys who wanted Julien fired however I do not hold that against him nor do I form my opinions based on that. I never got the impression that anyone on this board "hated" Koivu. Some wish he were traded, some, like myslef, feel Gainey gave him a sweet deal..too sweet..but I think that hate would be a strong term. I would venture to say that the fans who boo him (or anyone else for that matter) do not HATE the player..they are voiicing their displeasure. I think what bothers me the most is that so some, their does not seem to be a greay area allowed. You either have to totally love Koivu and everything he does, or you hate him. Expressing a negative opinion regardding him automatically puts you into the hate category. Why does it have to be black or white with him?

JohnM · Guru

Barry, I think your question has been answered already by Muller when he said that both AB and And-o love to dish it out on Sak whenever they have a chance. This leads one to believe that hate or dislike of a player is possible. If there was a shred of happiness when Sak did well then maybe it would not be so biased.

I for one am happy when the Habs do well whether Sak was part of it or not.

Muller93 · Guru

JohnM wrote:

If there was a shred of happiness when Sak did well then maybe it would not be so biased.
I for one am happy when the Habs do well whether Sak was part of it or not.

Exactly JohnM!!!! The only two one here that jump on opportunity to bash Koivu are And-O and AB. Barry presents a coherent argument AND supports Koivu when he does well.

And-o and AB just have something against Koivu. Simple as that. I mean anyone who is able to read between the lines can see that. You don't need a degree in investigative journalism to see the bias involved in their posts.

As for Barry...I completely disagree that we don't allow gray areas. Not true. I always see your points. I just think we disagree on the value of tradition and installing stability for our future rookies. I think that is worth the price tag. But barry's arguments are also valid. Time will tell I imagine.

I just get sick and tired of reading AB's and And-O's posts dripping with sarcasm and conviently, every now and again claiming innocence as if that convinces people that they are not biased for some "reason". Right.

AB Habman · Guru

I'm not going to lie. I did say I dislike that he is often injured, Lost a step, is fragile, doesn't possess a good shot, isn't the best passer, may not be the best leader and he isn't first line center material!

I dislike those qualities but I don't hate him! I never even met the guy! Hate is too personal!

Muller, have you ever said, you hate Ribs? You've come accross sounding disapprovingly but I don't think you actually hate him, do you?

Like Barry said, why does Saks have to be such a difficult issue all the time?

Is Theo paid too much?....yes! Is Saks new signing too much?...I also say yes!

Can you guys not be happy that my opinion is minority at this time? That minority may become majority soon depending on Saks play in the next three years, so enjoy it while you can! With this big signing, you have to realize and accept that Saks will be under the microscope without becoming too sensitive!

Muller93 · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

That minority may become majority soon depending on Saks play in the next three years, so enjoy it while you can!

"Enjoy it while you can"...thank you AB, you just proved my point. What... are you looking forward to "having your day"?

See all you ever do is appear like you can't wait to take a swipe at Koivu.

plouf · Guru

barry33 wrote:

I agree actually...I was told by a few people on this board when Julien got fired to "Not take it personally". I had one even "offer me a tissue". The ironic thing is that And-O was one of the guys who wanted Julien fired however I do not hold that against him nor do I form my opinions based on that. I never got the impression that anyone on this board "hated" Koivu. Some wish he were traded, some, like myslef, feel Gainey gave him a sweet deal..too sweet..but I think that hate would be a strong term. I would venture to say that the fans who boo him (or anyone else for that matter) do not HATE the player..they are voiicing their displeasure. I think what bothers me the most is that so some, their does not seem to be a greay area allowed. You either have to totally love Koivu and everything he does, or you hate him. Expressing a negative opinion regardding him automatically puts you into the hate category. Why does it have to be black or white with him?

You keep saying this, but I don't think it's true at all. The irony is that all of us, including And-o and AB Habman, tried to approach a gray area after the Saku signing. Everybody seemed to be willing to compromise on their positions or agree to disagree.

Where things went wrong is hard to say. But there's nothing extremist about having a different point of view from you about what it meant to sign him (and remember, most of the pro-Saku posters admitted that it was probably still too much money). Painting yourself as the only objective person seems more and more unfair. Fine if you want to grumble about the Saku contract, but fine also if I disagree with you even if I take the point that it's a lot of money and a risky commitment.

Saku11 · Senior Member

-- Edited by Saku11 at 16:43, 2006-02-16

Key Lime · Guru

After reading all these postings, I finally realize what ALL of you really want - You just want Koivu to be the player you always wanted him to be. No more, no less. You all WANT him to succeed. Whether it's AB and And-O or Muller93, JohnM, or myself - results are what we want from Saks.

AB / And-O don't think he's a bad player, they just believe he can do more and if in the next 3 years he becomes the player we all wished for, Ab and And-O will be the first to admit how impressed they are.

Bottom line, if we write about Saks EVERYDAY, it means two things = We all want him to succeed and we care for the Habs' future.

Amen

Saku11 · Senior Member

The problem is that the way Saku is underperforming it is not acceptable. He is the Captain of the Team and a leader, He has not shown any sign of the Koivu we grew to love, Feisty, skillful, smart, and one of a kind. Saku is not the only one underperforming, we all know that, but we have come to expect the underperformance from other players , but not from Saku. When we see him underperform it is Kind of like "If he doesnt lead by example, who will" So he takes the Brunt. It not usual to see Saku take a stupid penalty or be outskated or have so many giveaways like he has, and the way the season has gone, its we needed someone, specially our LEADER to step up. Have you noticed when you guys speak about Saku, you speak in the past tense. He averaged , He scored , he played hard, who has led the team, and so on. Its sad to say this, but in sports its not what you did for me, its what are you DOING for me at present time. Its sad to say but Saku has done Nothing all year. A handful of good games and thats about it. Look at Theodore!! He started out great, a promising year, but not producing. Same story with Koivu! its easy to bench a goalie and say he is tired. Nobody will look past it. But try and bench your Captain, and he is a trade rumor. Also, you cant sit here and say he does not have support. Look at Crosby in pittsburgh!! look at Ovechkin!! Look at Thornton in San Jose!! Look at Iginla in Calgary!! These players have no Superstars around them, and look at their production!

AB Habman · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

AB Habman wrote: That minority may become majority soon depending on Saks play in the next three years, so enjoy it while you can! "Enjoy it while you can"...thank you AB, you just proved my point. What... are you looking forward to "having your day"? See all you ever do is appear like you can't wait to take a swipe at Koivu.

It will be no different than me evaluating the Theo or Kovy signing or the Bonk trade etc.

I will take the opportunity to back up my opinion when I can just as you and John jump all over Saks like he is God after a good game!

My point to that Saks will be under the microscope. Myself and thousands in their own way will have a bases for discussion if he doesn't live up to this contract expectation. It's part and parcel of being a part of a sports forum!

AB Habman · Guru

Saku11 wrote:

The problem is that the way Saku is underperforming it is not acceptable. He is the Captain of the Team and a leader, He has not shown any sign of the Koivu we grew to love, Feisty, skillful, smart, and one of a kind. Saku is not the only one underperforming, we all know that, but we have come to expect the underperformance from other players , but not from Saku. When we see him underperform it is Kind of like "If he doesnt lead by example, who will" So he takes the Brunt. It not usual to see Saku take a stupid penalty or be outskated or have so many giveaways like he has, and the way the season has gone, its we needed someone, specially our LEADER to step up. Have you noticed when you guys speak about Saku, you speak in the past tense. He averaged , He scored , he played hard, who has led the team, and so on. Its sad to say this, but in sports its not what you did for me, its what are you DOING for me at present time. Its sad to say but Saku has done Nothing all year. A handful of good games and thats about it. Look at Theodore!! He started out great, a promising year, but not producing. Same story with Koivu! its easy to bench a goalie and say he is tired. Nobody will look past it. But try and bench your Captain, and he is a trade rumor. Also, you cant sit here and say he does not have support. Look at Crosby in pittsburgh!! look at Ovechkin!! Look at Thornton in San Jose!! Look at Iginla in Calgary!! These players have no Superstars around them, and look at their production!

To add to this also, I've mentioned before that it should be OK to base criticism on the duration of his new contract in the future! In my opinion, Saks has already been paid for the last ten years of which was also criticized!

Key Lime · Guru

I used to believe that it was unfair to criticize anyone or anything until a smart ass co-working responded by giving me the definition of criticism=

To judge the merits and faults of an individual.

When I heard that I realized that no one should judge the merits of anyone but then I heard the second half of the definition =

To analyze or evaluate.

This makes it all different. AB when you criticise Koivu, other posters are uncomfortable because it sounds like you are judging his merits rather than evaluating his performances.

Muller93 · Guru

Key Lime wrote:

AB when you criticise Koivu, other posters are uncomfortable because it sounds like you are judging his merits rather than evaluating his performances.

I think you nailed it Lime. I have no problem if someone wants to question and what not. But AB and And-o's posts appear rather...uhmmm...baised for some reason. It's the general tone.

No way these two guys can convince me that when they are critical, it is actually because they care about the habs. It just comes off rather like two guys who have a hidden agenda...

OK...I'll call it like I see it. I think these two guys loved Ribeiro and sided with the "Ribeiro for captain" crowd. Now that the season has been horrible for their hero, instead of sucking it up and admiting that all along Koivu was the better player, they choose to whine about it by pointing the finger at Koivu. Like a couple of children.

Sounds consistent with AB's hsitory of posts on this board that's for sure. Anyone else agree? Maybe I'm wrong but my spidey senses are tingling on this one.

I don't mind critisicm when it's warrented and makes sense( like in the case of Theo. Ribs, Bonk), but nonsense I find irritating.

-- Edited by Muller93 at 18:35, 2006-02-16

AB Habman · Guru

Now from hate factor to love factor? Umh, I guess we're not making progress!

Muller, the problem is I don't think I was wrong comparing the play of Saks and Ribs in the last season! I still to this day think Ribs out played Saks in that season. Again, I'm basing it on production and Ribs had more points!

Does Ribs play deserve criticism this season?...You bet, but I don't think Saks play is above criticism also!

Again, why does this subject have to be so difficult?

Muller93 · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

Ribs had more points!

Right...and that is the key really eh? Points.

Any way. I get it. You love Ribs and are bitter over the fact that Koivu is the better player.

No, Koivu's play this year is not above critisicm, but he is the habs best, most consistent forward this year.

So you figure since the habs have had an off year it must be Koivu's fault? Ok, a bit baby out with the bath water don't you think? So the penguins should dump Crosby because they REAlLY suck.

All i am asking AB is that you recognize that Koivu is currently the habs best all around forward...so why blast him at every opportunity,,,why not support him? Why not AB? Why not hmmmmm?

And oh yeah...I'll be the first to be critical if Koivu is not one of the habs top forwards on a consiten basis( every player is bound to have a few off nights). but I will be critical if he does is not a consistent performer...like he is now.

-- Edited by Muller93 at 19:36, 2006-02-16

AB Habman · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

AB Habman wrote: Ribs had more points! Right...and that is the key really eh? Points. Any way. I get it. You love Ribs and are bitter over the fact that Koivu is the better player. No, Koivu's play this year is not above critisicm, but he is the habs best, most consistent forward this year. So you figure since the habs have had an off year it must be Koivu's fault? Ok, a bit baby out with the bath water don't you think? So the penguins should dump Crosby because they REAlLY suck. All i am asking AB is that you recognize that Koivu is currently the habs best all around forward...so why blast him at every opportunity,,,why not support him? Why not AB? Why not hmmmmm?

This is all your opinion, not mine. I never said Crosby sucks nor would I even compare Saks to him!

I don't think Saks has been our best all around player this season and I'm becoming concerned to answer that because you'll think I'm in love with that certain player!

Nil d · Guru

I know I used the word "hate" in a post today, and that's likely not the right word, so I'll recant it.

What I see is Ab Habman constantly coming up with some negatives about Koivu while seemingly ignoring the positives. However, his posts are well-reasoned and generally written with a genteel tone, so I'm OK with all of that. Sometimes I may not like the post, but I have nothing against the poster.

With And-o, the tone is a bit more given to hyperbole, twisting of facts, and using passion rather than reason (while accusing others of the same). Even all that I can live with. What gets me is the constant references to "waiting for Koivu to get injured" and seemingly rubbing his hands in glee at the enjoyable thought. That I simply don't get.

And that, my friends, is my last Pro/Anti Saku post for this month.

Johab · Guru

Start the countdown to your next anti saku/hab post Nil d!!! 12 days to go!!!

AB Habman · Guru

Nil d wrote:

I know I used the word "hate" in a post today, and that's likely not the right word, so I'll recant it. What I see is Ab Habman constantly coming up with some negatives about Koivu while seemingly ignoring the positives. However, his posts are well-reasoned and generally written with a genteel tone, so I'm OK with all of that. Sometimes I may not like the post, but I have nothing against the poster. With And-o, the tone is a bit more given to hyperbole, twisting of facts, and using passion rather than reason (while accusing others of the same). Even all that I can live with. What gets me is the constant references to "waiting for Koivu to get injured" and seemingly rubbing his hands in glee at the enjoyable thought. That I simply don't get. And that, my friends, is my last Pro/Anti Saku post for this month.

Nil, I respect your opinion because you don't take it personally or become personal!

I again will not lie, I have brought up Saks injury as a direct bases for my opinion that the signing is too high! If it sounded too negative, I'm sorry. To say that I hope that he is injured is a stretch because that wouldn't make me a Habs fan. I realize that we need all our players healthy to have a chance at reaching the playoffs! By that I mean also playing to their capability...Saks included!

On the flip side if some think Saks is our most important player this season, that would be fine also if it wasn't rubbed in after a solid game just because these same people know that a few don't agree!

I guess I'm saying I see jabs go both ways!

JohnM · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

To say that I hope that he is injured is a stretch because that wouldn't make me a Habs fan.

I must admit that sometimes I do question whether you are a true fan or not.... I will also admit that the jabs do go back and forth but hey when you dish it you gotta learn to take it...

AB Habman · Guru

JohnM wrote:

AB Habman wrote: To say that I hope that he is injured is a stretch because that wouldn't make me a Habs fan. I must admit that sometimes I do question whether you are a true fan or not.... I will also admit that the jabs do go back and forth but hey when you dish it you gotta learn to take it...

My expectations are high right now on all the players as I'm tired of watching players not play up to their potential! We shouldn't be scratching year after year to make the playoffs!

I want to party to a Cup win soon and I hope this signing doesn't take away from paying our current roster or signing important players through trades or free agent pick-ups!

-- Edited by AB Habman at 23:18, 2006-02-16

Key Lime · Guru

Like I said in my earlier post, I don't think anyone is anti-Koivu. Quite the opposite, we want him to perform at a highter level because we believe he can. Has he done it this year. WAIT UNTIL THE SEASON BEGINS TO COME TO AN END AND THEN, EVALUATE & NOT CRITICIZE HIS PERFORMANCE.

BIG PICTURE!!!! When a fan has an idol or favorite player, he/she usually doesn't mind hearing opinions that their fav player had a bad night or is going through a slump. What they can't hear is constent ragging of how the player is totally replacable. That's when these discussion/arguements develop.

It's kind of like being in the stands at the Bell Centre and you scream out "Zednik wake up you statue" and his wife is sitting beside you even though she knows he's off that night. The reason why I including an example like this one that includes a player's family member ids because the Habs fan views his favorite player as something more, a link, a bond, whatever. This may sound a little over board but it's true.

To conclude, there must be a limit to being very critical especially when you take part in a forum like this. I ALWAYS SAID IT "IT'S ALL IN THE WAY THAT YOU SAY IT"