Question for Barry

AB Habman · Guru

Question for Barry

barry33 · Guru

Ab- I really can't say anything about the timing of the signing because there are so many variables and obviously all any of us can do is speculate. One thing that is very clear. Gainey has decided to make a statement..several statements in fact:

He tried to make a statement with Theo when he took over the reigns by starting Theo in place if Huet. This worked for 2 games and then backfired. He wanted to make the statement that Theo was going to be his man win, lose, or suck. His hope (in my mind) was that he could get a few solid games out of Theo and then move him. I believe that Gainey has every intention of trying to move Theo and his contract but for reasons as obvious as the day is long, he can't and is stuck with 5 million of wasted cap space on a cheerleader. Theo, his hair, and his Fat contract are here to say.

As for the timing of Koivu's signing, again I expect it is as much to do with stability. Gainey is trying to right a ship that has been listing heavily. The sooner he gets Saks signed the sooner the other players see stability. Gainey has now made another statement. He fires Julien and tells the players "ok Carbo and I are here to stay so you will NOT get rid of another coach" and now "Our captain is here for the duration so you ain't running him out of the dressing room either".

The length of the deal was not negotiable. I can tell you that CJ told me in September that if Koivu did not get a 3 year extension he was leaving. His agent was very clear about that. Gainey gave him a one year deal hoping that he would change his mind and he could get him for another year or 2. Obviously. Saks and his agent did not change their view and it was 3 years or nothing. There are teams out there who would have been willing to give Saks a 3 year deal and his agent knew it. Gainey knew it. So it comes down to "do I want him to stay or am I gonna deal him"?. Gainey wanted him to stay and the going rate is what was paid and a 3 year deal. As for the "no trade clause", I do not get all teary eyed over that and say "ohhhhh isnt that nice! Koivu does not want to go anywhere.". We have all seen the value and flexibility of a no trade clause. They are meant to be broken with two words from the player... "trade moi".

I am not upset at the $ amount. That is the going rate. Had Gainey not paid it, do not kid yourselves. There was a lineup forming to pay 3 years and 5 mill for Saku Koivu. Don;t poop on koivu or his agent for going for the best deal. This is a business. I said it before..Saks will look after Saks. He did. But please do not kid yourselves. Some try to paint it as Saks not wnating to go anywhere else and his heart being in Montreal. It is. the Bank of Montreal. I am sure that Koivu did not want to move. No one likes to move or change teams. You have to rent a U Haul, get your freinds a bunch of beer to help you load furniture, change your mail address..it is a pain. But let us not kid ourselves. Had BG not bellied up to the trough with EXACTLY what Saks agent demanded, he would be on his way to Anaheim, New York, or Edmonton. He did not sign for any less to stay in Montreal than he would have got elsewhere. In fact the Journal de Montreal reported that Sather and the Rangers were interested in trying to sign him and the 4 million figure was being bantied about. His agent knew what the going rate was and Gainey gave it to him. Nothing more, nothing less. But do not try to make it sound like Koivu paid the ultimate sacrifice to stay in Montreal. He and his agent made a calculated and sound business decision. Nothing more and nothing less. Remember Saks saying in October "Well maybe it is time I tested free agency as I ahve never had the opportunity". That is his agent laying the groundwork for negotiations.

So now we have stability. The players have gotten rid of a coach but the core of the team is staying. SO those who do not want to play along and get with the program will be gone. Is Koivu the man to lead this team? I don't know. Many here feel he is and as a habs fan I hope so. But Gainey has made several statements and is trying to right the ship, and that can only be good.

wright · Veteran Member

I agree with your central points Barry 1) Koviu would have received a similar deal that the Habs gave him with several potential suitors, if he became a free agent. 2) Gainey, rightly or wrongly felt that the best move was to sign Koviu, rather than risk losing him to free agency. 3) Gainey has sent a clear message to the malcontents in the dressing room that Koviu is the defacto leader of the team.

The issue now is as to whether Gillette will pony up additional funds in the off season to enable Gainey to acquire a quality goal scorer or a solid playmaking center. The Canadiens will have more cap room manouverability than alot of other teams out there. That fact would not change whether the Habs signed Koviu to a deal worth 2.5 million a year or the 4.7 million they did sign him for. The additional funds it cost to sign Koviu does constrict the budget somewhat, but there will be approximately 7-8 million in cap room to work with. There are a lot of variables for next year. Rivet, Souray are players one would not like to lose, but if it means perhaps trading one of those players to free up cap room to sign say a reliable goal scorer it may be a somewhat unpalateble option but one to take if it upgrades the offense. Perhaps Theodore shows some ability to regain his form and suddenly his marketability increases, and he becomes a more tradable commodity. The fact is the Koviu signing does not have to be an untenable situation for the team to improve.

barry33 · Guru

Yep wright...now we sit back and see how it all plays itself out. Gainey is making the moves that he things need to be made and for damn sure he is in a better position then I am lol

Muller93 · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Ab- I really can't say anything about the timing of the signing because there are so many variables and obviously all any of us can do is speculate. One thing that is very clear. Gainey has decided to make a statement..several statements in fact: He tried to make a statement with Theo when he took over the reigns by starting Theo in place if Huet. This worked for 2 games and then backfired. He wanted to make the statement that Theo was going to be his man win, lose, or suck. His hope (in my mind) was that he could get a few solid games out of Theo and then move him. I believe that Gainey has every intention of trying to move Theo and his contract but for reasons as obvious as the day is long, he can't and is stuck with 5 million of wasted cap space on a cheerleader. Theo, his hair, and his Fat contract are here to say. As for the timing of Koivu's signing, again I expect it is as much to do with stability. Gainey is trying to right a ship that has been listing heavily. The sooner he gets Saks signed the sooner the other players see stability. Gainey has now made another statement. He fires Julien and tells the players "ok Carbo and I are here to stay so you will NOT get rid of another coach" and now "Our captain is here for the duration so you ain't running him out of the dressing room either". The length of the deal was not negotiable. I can tell you that CJ told me in September that if Koivu did not get a 3 year extension he was leaving. His agent was very clear about that. Gainey gave him a one year deal hoping that he would change his mind and he could get him for another year or 2. Obviously. Saks and his agent did not change their view and it was 3 years or nothing. There are teams out there who would have been willing to give Saks a 3 year deal and his agent knew it. Gainey knew it. So it comes down to "do I want him to stay or am I gonna deal him"?. Gainey wanted him to stay and the going rate is what was paid and a 3 year deal. As for the "no trade clause", I do not get all teary eyed over that and say "ohhhhh isnt that nice! Koivu does not want to go anywhere.". We have all seen the value and flexibility of a no trade clause. They are meant to be broken with two words from the player... "trade moi". I am not upset at the $ amount. That is the going rate. Had Gainey not paid it, do not kid yourselves. There was a lineup forming to pay 3 years and 5 mill for Saku Koivu. Don;t poop on koivu or his agent for going for the best deal. This is a business. I said it before..Saks will look after Saks. He did. But please do not kid yourselves. Some try to paint it as Saks not wnating to go anywhere else and his heart being in Montreal. It is. the Bank of Montreal. I am sure that Koivu did not want to move. No one likes to move or change teams. You have to rent a U Haul, get your freinds a bunch of beer to help you load furniture, change your mail address..it is a pain. But let us not kid ourselves. Had BG not bellied up to the trough with EXACTLY what Saks agent demanded, he would be on his way to Anaheim, New York, or Edmonton. He did not sign for any less to stay in Montreal than he would have got elsewhere. In fact the Journal de Montreal reported that Sather and the Rangers were interested in trying to sign him and the 4 million figure was being bantied about. His agent knew what the going rate was and Gainey gave it to him. Nothing more, nothing less. But do not try to make it sound like Koivu paid the ultimate sacrifice to stay in Montreal. He and his agent made a calculated and sound business decision. Nothing more and nothing less. Remember Saks saying in October "Well maybe it is time I tested free agency as I ahve never had the opportunity". That is his agent laying the groundwork for negotiations. So now we have stability. The players have gotten rid of a coach but the core of the team is staying. SO those who do not want to play along and get with the program will be gone. Is Koivu the man to lead this team? I don't know. Many here feel he is and as a habs fan I hope so. But Gainey has made several statements and is trying to right the ship, and that can only be good.

Really well put Barry.

Although, I actually do think Koivu could have signed for three years and maybe squeezed an extra mil out of some other team. So in some respects, I think you gotta believe that Koivu chose Montreal, on some level, for loyalty purposes. He has been on record saying that he will never forget the class the Montreal organization showed him during his illness.

But you can see that the loyalty only goes so far when Koivu talked about testing free agency eh? Because in the end, it is a business, and Koivu would have to ensure staying a hab would be a mutually beneficial move.

AB Habman · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Ab- I really can't say anything about the timing of the signing because there are so many variables and obviously all any of us can do is speculate. One thing that is very clear. Gainey has decided to make a statement..several statements in fact: He tried to make a statement with Theo when he took over the reigns by starting Theo in place if Huet. This worked for 2 games and then backfired. He wanted to make the statement that Theo was going to be his man win, lose, or suck. His hope (in my mind) was that he could get a few solid games out of Theo and then move him. I believe that Gainey has every intention of trying to move Theo and his contract but for reasons as obvious as the day is long, he can't and is stuck with 5 million of wasted cap space on a cheerleader. Theo, his hair, and his Fat contract are here to say. As for the timing of Koivu's signing, again I expect it is as much to do with stability. Gainey is trying to right a ship that has been listing heavily. The sooner he gets Saks signed the sooner the other players see stability. Gainey has now made another statement. He fires Julien and tells the players "ok Carbo and I are here to stay so you will NOT get rid of another coach" and now "Our captain is here for the duration so you ain't running him out of the dressing room either". The length of the deal was not negotiable. I can tell you that CJ told me in September that if Koivu did not get a 3 year extension he was leaving. His agent was very clear about that. Gainey gave him a one year deal hoping that he would change his mind and he could get him for another year or 2. Obviously. Saks and his agent did not change their view and it was 3 years or nothing. There are teams out there who would have been willing to give Saks a 3 year deal and his agent knew it. Gainey knew it. So it comes down to "do I want him to stay or am I gonna deal him"?. Gainey wanted him to stay and the going rate is what was paid and a 3 year deal. As for the "no trade clause", I do not get all teary eyed over that and say "ohhhhh isnt that nice! Koivu does not want to go anywhere.". We have all seen the value and flexibility of a no trade clause. They are meant to be broken with two words from the player... "trade moi". I am not upset at the $ amount. That is the going rate. Had Gainey not paid it, do not kid yourselves. There was a lineup forming to pay 3 years and 5 mill for Saku Koivu. Don;t poop on koivu or his agent for going for the best deal. This is a business. I said it before..Saks will look after Saks. He did. But please do not kid yourselves. Some try to paint it as Saks not wnating to go anywhere else and his heart being in Montreal. It is. the Bank of Montreal. I am sure that Koivu did not want to move. No one likes to move or change teams. You have to rent a U Haul, get your freinds a bunch of beer to help you load furniture, change your mail address..it is a pain. But let us not kid ourselves. Had BG not bellied up to the trough with EXACTLY what Saks agent demanded, he would be on his way to Anaheim, New York, or Edmonton. He did not sign for any less to stay in Montreal than he would have got elsewhere. In fact the Journal de Montreal reported that Sather and the Rangers were interested in trying to sign him and the 4 million figure was being bantied about. His agent knew what the going rate was and Gainey gave it to him. Nothing more, nothing less. But do not try to make it sound like Koivu paid the ultimate sacrifice to stay in Montreal. He and his agent made a calculated and sound business decision. Nothing more and nothing less. Remember Saks saying in October "Well maybe it is time I tested free agency as I ahve never had the opportunity". That is his agent laying the groundwork for negotiations. So now we have stability. The players have gotten rid of a coach but the core of the team is staying. SO those who do not want to play along and get with the program will be gone. Is Koivu the man to lead this team? I don't know. Many here feel he is and as a habs fan I hope so. But Gainey has made several statements and is trying to right the ship, and that can only be good.

I guess I thought the 40-60 point man was only worth about 2.2 mil. Just to throw in a small centermen that is more skilled than Saks is Scott Gomez who has already 54 points this season and makes 2.2mil. I guess we would need alot more contracts to compare but Saks contract still seems high!

Also what's this going to do to the team as a whole? They're potential players that will out produce Saks in a couple seasons like Plec, Ryder, Higgins and Markov! Are they going to demand more in comparison? I guess my point is are we going to have to lose these players because of this signing?

It's bad enough that we have underaheiver/overpaid players like Bonk and Theo without taking such a gamble on a player that may only play half of the following seasons! Also it's not an impact player that you can say with him, we have a better chance at making the playoffs! As it has proven itself over the last couple season with us making it without him or with him part time! At least with Kovy (even if he floats) you can say he is an impact player as shawn by our record without him in the lineup!

Muller93 · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

I guess I thought the 40-60 point man was only worth about 2.2 mil. Just to throw in a small centermen that is more skilled than Saks is Scott Gomez who has already 54 points this season and makes 2.2mil. I guess we would need alot more contracts to compare but Saks contract still seems high! Also what's this going to do to the team as a whole? They're potential players that will out produce Saks in a couple seasons like Plec, Ryder, Higgins and Markov! Are they going to demand more in comparison? I guess my point is are we going to have to lose these players because of this signing? It's bad enough that we have underaheiver/overpaid players like Bonk and Theo without taking such a gamble on a player that may only play half of the following seasons! Also it's not an impact player that you can say with him, we have a better chance at making the playoffs! As it has proven itself over the last couple season with us making it without him or with him part time! At least with Kovy (even if he floats) you can say he is an impact player as shawn by our record without him in the lineup!

Geesh AB. When are you gonna learn that a players value does not always have to be reflected by points? I posted before that Muller himself was not a huge point guy, his value was more along the lines of a grinder that got points. Kinda like Koivu. You need those kind of players. They are actually quite rare.

Anyhow, if you were the GM we would be stocked with a bunch of "floaties" who all got 2 points a game. End result: score Habs ppostion 10.

Look for Gainey to land a bonified first or second line center next year in a free agent signing. Then watch as this team builds towards cup contention... with koivu at the helm

-- Edited by Muller93 at 20:14, 2006-02-12

JohnM · Guru

Muller don't bother with AB. We went through this in 2003-2004 and he stopped bashing once the playoffs hit and saw what Saku brought and what Ribs didn't. I think he posts most of the bashing for reaction, not worth the time.

AB Habman · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

AB Habman wrote: I guess I thought the 40-60 point man was only worth about 2.2 mil. Just to throw in a small centermen that is more skilled than Saks is Scott Gomez who has already 54 points this season and makes 2.2mil. I guess we would need alot more contracts to compare but Saks contract still seems high! Also what's this going to do to the team as a whole? They're potential players that will out produce Saks in a couple seasons like Plec, Ryder, Higgins and Markov! Are they going to demand more in comparison? I guess my point is are we going to have to lose these players because of this signing? It's bad enough that we have underaheiver/overpaid players like Bonk and Theo without taking such a gamble on a player that may only play half of the following seasons! Also it's not an impact player that you can say with him, we have a better chance at making the playoffs! As it has proven itself over the last couple season with us making it without him or with him part time! At least with Kovy (even if he floats) you can say he is an impact player as shawn by our record without him in the lineup! Geesh AB. When are you gonna learn that a players value does not always have to be reflected by points? I posted before that Muller himself was not a huge point guy, his value was more along the lines of a grinder that got points. Kinda like Koivu. You need those kind of players. They are actually quite rare. Anyhow, if you were the GM we would be stocked with a bunch of "floaties" who all got 2 points a game. End result: score Habs ppostion 10. Look for Gainey to land a bonified first or second line center next year in a free agent signing. Then watch as this team builds towards cup contention... with koivu at the helm -- Edited by Muller93 at 20:14, 2006-02-12

Muller, I hope you're right that Gainey can still add a couple elete players without losing our young crop or future in the next couple years! This signing will be best analyzed long term! If we have alot of playoff success then it will be a good thing! If it comprimises Cap space and we miss the playoffs in the next few seasons, then a terrible deal!

It would be a huge mistake for any GM to sign on what the player has done in the past but how the player will produce and give you a better chance of winning in the future!

barry33 · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

AB Habman wrote: I guess I thought the 40-60 point man was only worth about 2.2 mil. Just to throw in a small centermen that is more skilled than Saks is Scott Gomez who has already 54 points this season and makes 2.2mil. I guess we would need alot more contracts to compare but Saks contract still seems high! Also what's this going to do to the team as a whole? They're potential players that will out produce Saks in a couple seasons like Plec, Ryder, Higgins and Markov! Are they going to demand more in comparison? I guess my point is are we going to have to lose these players because of this signing? It's bad enough that we have underaheiver/overpaid players like Bonk and Theo without taking such a gamble on a player that may only play half of the following seasons! Also it's not an impact player that you can say with him, we have a better chance at making the playoffs! As it has proven itself over the last couple season with us making it without him or with him part time! At least with Kovy (even if he floats) you can say he is an impact player as shawn by our record without him in the lineup! Geesh AB. When are you gonna learn that a players value does not always have to be reflected by points? I posted before that Muller himself was not a huge point guy, his value was more along the lines of a grinder that got points. Kinda like Koivu. You need those kind of players. They are actually quite rare. Anyhow, if you were the GM we would be stocked with a bunch of "floaties" who all got 2 points a game. End result: score Habs ppostion 10. Look for Gainey to land a bonified first or second line center next year in a free agent signing. Then watch as this team builds towards cup contention... with koivu at the helm -- Edited by Muller93 at 20:14, 2006-02-12

Muller and John- yes you and I see that Saks has more value then just points. But I think that Abs opinion (like it or not) reflects the attitude of NHL players today. Do you really think that Kovalev (Mr. Ego) is going to be happy not making as much money in Montreal as Koivu? Uhhmmm..how about..no. In fact, I am willing to bet that he is on the telly with his agent right now discussing it. We can discuss the "intangibles" that Saks brings to the team until the cows come home (or the girls at the country bar, take your pick). The fact is that players and agents, the guys who negotiate these things.. go strictly by points..nothing more, nothing less. How mant times do you hear an agent saying "my client is looking for Peter Foreberg type money, or Matts Sundin type money?" All the time. Points and only points (and mostly goals) are the benchmarks in which negotiations are set at. I can guarantee you that this off season who have better point totals (but maybe do not have near the intangibles) than Koivu saying "Hey Koivue is making 5 mill and only scored 16 goals last year"