Post Olympic Prediction on Saks!

AB Habman · Guru

Post Olympic Prediction on Saks!

Ando · Guru

...it'll be the same old "Hokey Pokey" for Saku after Torino (as in, one game in ~ one game out)!

However, if Saku is smart...he'll pour his guts into playing for his country because right now Bob Gainey holds all the high cards in terms of his pending contract negotiations!

...And-o is sure that Bob has challenged Saku's agent these past few weeks...perhaps simply by asking "what does Saku give us now that Tomac Plekanec can't/won't in a year or two???".

And-o thinks that is a legitimate question...is there a big enough difference between the two to warrant top-line centre kinda money??? Don't forget...Tomas Plekanec won the MVP of the AHL just a year ago.

Nil d · Guru

Maybe And-o and AB will both get their wish and Saku will get hurt!! Maybe even a career-ender - wouldn't that be GRRRREAT!!!!!!!!!

Nil d thinks And-o and ABHabman need to have their heads examined.

Muller93 · Guru

Ando wrote:

Tomas Plekanec won the MVP of the AHL just a year ago.

Huh? I think he won MVP of the bogus AHL all star game, not of the AHL season. Although I really like Plek...

Muller93 · Guru

I, for one have given up on And-o and AB. They clearly don't get that Ni'd ,Plouf, JohnM, Key lime, Normie, myself and many others like Saks not because he is Saks, but because he is a really good player who contributes a great deal to our habs.

And-o and AB... have certain REASONS for disliking Saks that are completely unrelated to hockey and our habs. Not sure what it is but I am sure I could hazard a guess, but that would have to be a discussion for another board I imagine...

In any case, lets stick to the facts and avoid the bull...ony that we get from certain corners.

I have said Koivu got a couple of lazy penalties, I have said I am not sure why he avoided the media, I have said he would benefit from playing in less game situations, I have said he is an average face-off guy.

I have NEVER called him a "Saint". But he is a REALLY good hockey player and by far the habs most consistent forward. AND despite Barry's attempts to sway public opinion, Koivu has proven over and over again why he is the chosen leader on the habs. It's just plain STUPID to even question it. I mean what...every GM, coach, owner has just handed him the "c" because they are stunned?

-- Edited by Muller93 at 21:58, 2006-02-10

AB Habman · Guru

And-o is the only one to make a prediction! I predict Saks will play well in Torino also and then it's all down hill after that! He'll end the season with 59 points! Second amongst Hab centers!

JohnM · Guru

Don't forget Team Finland. Didn't they take silver at the Worlds? Not a bad accomplishment....

Muller93 · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

And-o is the only one to make a prediction! I predict Saks will play well in Torino also and then it's all down hill after that! He'll end the season with 59 points! Second amongst Hab centers!

See my post above yours AB. We must have posted around the same time. Gives me the creeps

.

AB Habman · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

AB Habman wrote: And-o is the only one to make a prediction! I predict Saks will play well in Torino also and then it's all down hill after that! He'll end the season with 59 points! Second amongst Hab centers! See my post above yours AB. We must have posted around the same time. Gives me the creeps.

Where is your prediction on post Olympics regarding Saks? Anything specific? Where's your confidence on Saks?

plouf · Guru

Where is your answer to the question of who the best forward is on the Habs?
Still waiting for that first.

Anyway, typically loaded question:
if Saks does poorly in the Olympics it's proof that he sucks, and if he does well, it's proof that his priorities lie elsewhere, or that he's trying simply to up his free agent value.

AB Habman · Guru

plouf wrote:

Where is your answer to the question of who the best forward is on the Habs? Still waiting for that first. Anyway, typically loaded question: if Saks does poorly in the Olympics it's proof that he sucks, and if he does well, it's proof that his priorities lie elsewhere, or that he's trying simply to up his free agent value.

I said centermen!

Nil d · Guru

plouf wrote:

Where is your answer to the question of who the best forward is on the Habs? Still waiting for that first. Anyway, typically loaded question: if Saks does poorly in the Olympics it's proof that he sucks, and if he does well, it's proof that his priorities lie elsewhere, or that he's trying simply to up his free agent value.

I'm glad you brought it up; I said I wouldn't ask again. And-o replied a qualified "No" - no forward is better, but it's a four-way tie.

AB, your reply???????????????

Nil d · Guru

AB Habman wrote:

Does he come back injured? Does his play deteriate even more so than now because of fatigue? Does Ribs continue to improve and like the last season over take Saks at season's end in points? Does Saks come back with renewed energy and regain first line center? What do you think boys and girls?

Injured? Who can say?

Play deteriate? I don't know what that word means.

Ribs overtake in points? Not a chance - unless there's an injury.

Renewed energy/first line? I say Yes.

habgirl · Guru

Nil d wrote:

What do you think boys and girls? Injured? Who can say? Play deteriate? I don't know what that word means. Ribs overtakAB Habman wrote: Does he come back injured? Does his play deteriate e in points? Not a chance - unless there's an injury. Renewed energy/first line? I say Yes.

I don't know what deteriate means, but I think I get the point. I will say this - everyone has off days. If you've ever seen #11 live during a warmup or on the bench, he IS a leader, full stop. The young guys look up to him, and the vets feed off of his play. We have too few players that will go into the corner time and time again, whether playing injured, sick, or when bringing his full-on game face.

Count me in as a Koivu lover. (not in THAT way, don't worry Theo!)

barry33 · Guru

Muller93 wrote:

I, for one have given up on And-o and AB. They clearly don't get that Ni'd ,Plouf, JohnM, Key lime, Normie, myself and many others like Saks not because he is Saks, but because he is a really good player who contributes a great deal to our habs. And-o and AB... have certain REASONS for disliking Saks that are completely unrelated to hockey and our habs. Not sure what it is but I am sure I could hazard a guess, but that would have to be a discussion for another board I imagine... In any case, lets stick to the facts and avoid the bull...ony that we get from certain corners. I have said Koivu got a couple of lazy penalties, I have said I am not sure why he avoided the media, I have said he would benefit from playing in less game situations, I have said he is an average face-off guy. I have NEVER called him a "Saint". But he is a REALLY good hockey player and by far the habs most consistent forward. AND despite Barry's attempts to sway public opinion, Koivu has proven over and over again why he is the chosen leader on the habs. It's just plain STUPID to even question it. I mean what...every GM, coach, owner has just handed him the "c" because they are stunned? -- Edited by Muller93 at 21:58, 2006-02-10

OK.,.I seem to keep getting drawn into your tiff with Ab and And-O regarding Koivu whether I like it or not so I guess it is time to defend myself. (although WHY I have NO idea..trying to convince you that Koivi may have a fault or two is comparable to trying to convince my ex wife she may have been wrong about something). First of all, I really do not think I need to be painted with the same brush as they are. While they have made it clear they do not like Koivu and would prefer him traded, I have made every attempt to clarify my stand on him, but alas, one more time for posterity sake.

Soooo....for those who missed an earlier episode..here we go again.

I like Koivu. Have met him and had a beer with him. Claude Julien likes Koivu. In fact Koivu was at CJ's wedding. Like Koivu's wife (or gf I forget which she is..hope he does not have one of each like I used to lol).. I like the effort he brings MOST nights. CJ does not feel that Koivu was responsible fo rhis firing and neither do I.
I feel that Koivu was a good first line center at one time but no longer should be filling that role. In fact, I predict that if he moves on or is traded, he will be the best 2nd line center in the league. Can you imagine him on the Rangers second line or Ottawa? 2nd line and 2nd PP unit. More rested, less pressure. He will prolong his career by years
I feel he is worn out and tired. And like many other players, should be sitting out the Olympics. If anyone needs 2 weeks off it is Saku Koivu. But that is a discussion for a different forum (Olympic loyalty vs Team loyalty). There are many players, especially Eurpeans, who are going to the Olympics who have been playing hurt the last month. While some Canadian players who are injured and coupld porbably still play, have been bowing out to heal. Personally, I feel your loyalty is not with your country but with the logo on your paycheck. Again, a debate for another time.
My main beef has been, will be, and is, leadership. Muller you make claims that he is "one of the best leaders in the sport". What do you attribute this to? What does he do as Captain of the Canadiens or Team FInland for that matter, that makes him the ultimate leader? I have cited examples of why I have concerns about his ability to lead (at least this years team). To quote Bob Mackenzie " When does the revolving coach door stop in Montreal. Some players there have gone through 6 coaches, yet the players remain and the coches keep chainging. Maybe it is time for habs management to think "gee maybe it is not the coching?" But I will recap again for those who missed it:
The dressing room has been in obvious disarray now for some time. He has been unable to unite the various factions. An ultimate leader woul dbe able to do that. Messier was the ultimate leader. If Mess was captain of this team do you think that he would allow these little cliques? Nope. Simply put, Koivu no longer has the ablity to lead the team. Period. I do not argue that he leads on the ice by his play and effort most nights. But sometimes, that is not enough. Otherwise Bouillon would be a great captain.
His comments during the coaching change (and once again Puhlllllleeeeease do not try to defelct this by saying this is about CJ's firing..I will not even waste a reply on that) spoke volumes about his role in that dressing room. Let me restate..what Koivu said "sometimes when things in a company are not going well the boss has to get fired. Unofrtunate but that is the way it is" now what Koivu SHOULD have said (if he was a great leader and wanted to get this team turned around) "we as players need to be accountable for what happened. The coach cannot get on the ice and do the job. Each and every one of us needs to look in the mirror and find out what WE can do to turn this season around, including me" As Captain, this would be an appropriate response. Rally the troops. Let them know that you cannot stand for the lack of effort and that you are not impressed. DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY. But hey, he has company in the captaincy because Kovalev showed just as much accountabilty.
After another subpar game the other night in which he took a bad penalty to nullify a power play, he ducks out the back door and leaves poor Steve Begin to face the media and explain why "he" cost the team the game. Now you have said "he must have had a good reason". Well if he does, he has yet to come out and explain it. What do you think that does for his teamates when the Captain walks out and leaves them to fry in front of the media?!?? Do you think that they respect him for that?

I think that for awhile, Koivu lead the team because of his amazing comeback from cancer. The players respected him for that (and rightly so). But that has faded away and now he is forced to dig deep and try to lead a team of misfits going in different directions. And it appears to me he is either unable or unwilling to do that.

Now i have given my views on why I think he is not the "ultimate leader" or captain. I guess I will await why you think he is.

-- Edited by barry33 at 09:05, 2006-02-11

habgirl · Guru

Whoa back Barry-boy!

Gotta say this, Barry calls 'em as he sees 'em.

I LOVE THIS BOARD!

Nil d · Guru

Barry: I'm with you on most of what you say about Koivu. I will defer to your inside knowledge on the "leadership" issue. I like Koivu as a player; I never said he was a saint or the world's best captain. I do believe you have a bias due to your friendship with CJ, even though you deny that. That's OK too.

For the record: I would never lump you in with the And-o/Ab clique. Not even close. And I'm sorry you feel the need to jump in and seemingly be in their court. I'd prefer you on my side! (Not that there should be sides.........)

(In fact, it also hurts me to see AB lumped in with And-o. He (AB) is a lot more reasoned and rational. And even And-o, if he stopped being personal about things, would be amusing rather than irritating.)

But be careful who you crap on, Barry. You have made many negative comments about your ex-wife, for example, but have admitted cheating on her. None of us is lily-white.

But in the final analysis, we are all Hab fans and should be able to keep the personal out of it.

-- Edited by Nil d at 10:07, 2006-02-11

barry33 · Guru

Nil d wrote:

Barry: I'm with you on most of what you say about Koivu. I will defer to your inside knowledge on the "leadership" issue. I like Koivu as a player; I never said he was a saint or the world's best captain. I do believe you have a bias due to your friendship with CJ, even though you deny that. That's OK too. For the record: I would never lump you in with the And-o/Ab clique. Not even close. And I'm sorry you feel the need to jump in and seemingly be in their court. I'd prefer you on my side! (Not that there should be sides.........) (In fact, it also hurts me to see AB lumped in with And-o. He (AB) is a lot more reasoned and rational. And even And-o, if he stopped being personal about things, would be amusing rather than irritating.) But be careful who you crap on, Barry. You have made many negative comments about your ex-wife, for example, but have admitted cheating on her. None of us is lily-white. But in the final analysis, we are all Hab fans and should be able to keep the personal out of it. -- Edited by Nil d at 10:07, 2006-02-11

Nilsey- I was kidding about the ex wife/gf thing lol...as for Koivu, now that eh is signed i am glad to have him. However I will continue to push for him to be a better leader and to take a secondary role as a center. I say that not because of any ill feelings towards him, but because I feel that as a habs fan, that would be best for the team.

plouf · Guru

Agree with pretty much everything you say, Barry. Definitely I don't think of you as an obsessive Koivu-hater.

I don't know about the leadership issue; he's been a great leader for the Finnish team, if you recall, and his NHL team has repeatedly rallied around him in public statements and visible behaviour during practice, etc... (I suppose his leadership is pretty much up for interpretation)...but you're right, the team seems divided this year, and Koivu is in a funk at the moment (possibly fatigue and contract-related?).
I don't know how much that is just a condition in every dressing room, and gets worse when the team is sucking. Lately we see Ribeiro and Koivu joking around and getting along, etc.. probably something to do with recent results I'd say.

As for the Messier example. Well, he lead a team full of talented players and presided as captain over its decline. The Rangers were mostly terrible while Messier was captain, and yet I would never think to blame him, because given the right coach and mix of players, he was able to win a cup in New York.

Nil d · Guru

barry33 wrote:

Nilsey- I was kidding about the ex wife/gf thing lol...as for Koivu, now that eh is signed i am glad to have him. However I will continue to push for him to be a better leader and to take a secondary role as a center. I say that not because of any ill feelings towards him, but because I feel that as a habs fan, that would be best for the team.

Fair enough.

Nuff said.

Muller93 · Guru

barry33 wrote:

OK.,.I seem to keep getting drawn into your tiff with Ab and And-O regarding Koivu whether I like it or not so I guess it is time to defend myself. (although WHY I have NO idea..trying to convince you that Koivi may have a fault or two is comparable to trying to convince my ex wife she may have been wrong about something). First of all, I really do not think I need to be painted with the same brush as they are. While they have made it clear they do not like Koivu and would prefer him traded, I have made every attempt to clarify my stand on him, but alas, one more time for posterity sake. Soooo....for those who missed an earlier episode..here we go again. I like Koivu. Have met him and had a beer with him. Claude Julien likes Koivu. In fact Koivu was at CJ's wedding. Like Koivu's wife (or gf I forget which she is..hope he does not have one of each like I used to lol).. I like the effort he brings MOST nights. CJ does not feel that Koivu was responsible fo rhis firing and neither do I. I feel that Koivu was a good first line center at one time but no longer should be filling that role. In fact, I predict that if he moves on or is traded, he will be the best 2nd line center in the league. Can you imagine him on the Rangers second line or Ottawa? 2nd line and 2nd PP unit. More rested, less pressure. He will prolong his career by years I feel he is worn out and tired. And like many other players, should be sitting out the Olympics. If anyone needs 2 weeks off it is Saku Koivu. But that is a discussion for a different forum (Olympic loyalty vs Team loyalty). There are many players, especially Eurpeans, who are going to the Olympics who have been playing hurt the last month. While some Canadian players who are injured and coupld porbably still play, have been bowing out to heal. Personally, I feel your loyalty is not with your country but with the logo on your paycheck. Again, a debate for another time. My main beef has been, will be, and is, leadership. Muller you make claims that he is "one of the best leaders in the sport". What do you attribute this to? What does he do as Captain of the Canadiens or Team FInland for that matter, that makes him the ultimate leader? I have cited examples of why I have concerns about his ability to lead (at least this years team). To quote Bob Mackenzie " When does the revolving coach door stop in Montreal. Some players there have gone through 6 coaches, yet the players remain and the coches keep chainging. Maybe it is time for habs management to think "gee maybe it is not the coching?" But I will recap again for those who missed it: The dressing room has been in obvious disarray now for some time. He has been unable to unite the various factions. An ultimate leader woul dbe able to do that. Messier was the ultimate leader. If Mess was captain of this team do you think that he would allow these little cliques? Nope. Simply put, Koivu no longer has the ablity to lead the team. Period. I do not argue that he leads on the ice by his play and effort most nights. But sometimes, that is not enough. Otherwise Bouillon would be a great captain. His comments during the coaching change (and once again Puhlllllleeeeease do not try to defelct this by saying this is about CJ's firing..I will not even waste a reply on that) spoke volumes about his role in that dressing room. Let me restate..what Koivu said "sometimes when things in a company are not going well the boss has to get fired. Unofrtunate but that is the way it is" now what Koivu SHOULD have said (if he was a great leader and wanted to get this team turned around) "we as players need to be accountable for what happened. The coach cannot get on the ice and do the job. Each and every one of us needs to look in the mirror and find out what WE can do to turn this season around, including me" As Captain, this would be an appropriate response. Rally the troops. Let them know that you cannot stand for the lack of effort and that you are not impressed. DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY. But hey, he has company in the captaincy because Kovalev showed just as much accountabilty. After another subpar game the other night in which he took a bad penalty to nullify a power play, he ducks out the back door and leaves poor Steve Begin to face the media and explain why "he" cost the team the game. Now you have said "he must have had a good reason". Well if he does, he has yet to come out and explain it. What do you think that does for his teamates when the Captain walks out and leaves them to fry in front of the media?!?? Do you think that they respect him for that? I think that for awhile, Koivu lead the team because of his amazing comeback from cancer. The players respected him for that (and rightly so). But that has faded away and now he is forced to dig deep and try to lead a team of misfits going in different directions. And it appears to me he is either unable or unwilling to do that. Now i have given my views on why I think he is not the "ultimate leader" or captain. I guess I will await why you think he is. -- Edited by barry33 at 09:05, 2006-02-11

yikes. what a post. I actually read this AFTER responding on some other threads about how I don't lump you in with the Koivu bashers. So, I guess I knew it before reading this post. Great post Barry.

Only thing Barry I completely disagree with is the leadership thing. I think you a far far off on that one. I could make an argument put I don't have the energy Barry does obviously.

Of course we all have opinions so don't take offense to my disagreement.

Muller93 · Guru

Barry. You say lack of leadership. I say even the pied pipper could not lead that bunch of rats...

JohnM · Guru

BG wouldn't have signed him if he wasn't the leader most of us believe he is...

barry33 · Guru

JohnM wrote:

BG wouldn't have signed him if he wasn't the leader most of us believe he is...

I am starting to wonder John. This is the same BG who appoints Alex Kovalev an assitant captain..do you see any leadership qualities in Alex?