Time to give Sak the credit he's due

JohnM · Guru

Time to give Sak the credit he's due

flowerpower · Veteran Member

I agree totally - I think Koivu is our best player. We need to keep him. I mentioned in a previous post that we should have signed him to 2 or 3 years this year. Its sad to say but I think this is the final year for Koivu in a Habs jersey.

Power · Veteran Member

flowerpower wrote:

Its sad to say but I think this is the final year for Koivu in a Habs jersey.

If it´s up to Koivu so I don´t think so. So much he praises Habs, fans and hole city when he speaks here in Finland or in Finnish media. I think that he will play his hole NHL career in Habs unless they trade him to some other team like they have done for some many captains before him

Ando · Guru

And-o takes no pleasure in seeing Saku (or any player) hurt!

...and, yes, Saku has enjoyed a great start...but And-o thinks Markov and Kovy (sorry but the guy is the most exciting Hab since Guy) have been our first two stars so far this year.....and Saku is tied for third with Begin (who has muscled his way into EVERYONES heart).

Note that Bulis would be in the top 3 if only he could learn to flip the puck into the ocean with a teaspoon!!! How many chances does the guy miss???

P.S. Absolutely no way will BG sign Saku long-term...there is no need to...WAAYYYYY too much risk (history repeats). A two year deal MAX...and I'd be amazed if it happened before Christmas!

JohnM · Guru

Ando wrote:

A two year deal MAX...and I'd be amazed if it happened before Christmas!

It won't happen until January because I believe they are not allowed to negotiate until that time. I see a 3-4 year deal coming.

barry33 · Guru

barry33 is neither por nor con Saku. I guess I sit somehere between the adulation that John gives him and the negativity that And-O feels for him. But what I do totally respect is the guy's heart. Like Begin, he bleeds rouge, blanc et blu and to me, as a coach, that is all I ask.

JohnM · Guru

barry33 wrote:

barry33 is neither por nor con Saku. I guess I sit somehere between the adulation that John gives him and the negativity that And-O feels for him. But what I do totally respect is the guy's heart. Like Begin, he bleeds rouge, blanc et blu and to me, as a coach, that is all I ask.

Interesting barry, why the indifference towards the Habs captain? I guess I just can't understand if you are a Habs fan, how can you not just love this guy and what he does for the team. Would that change if he wins a cup with the Habs? i.e. what does he have to do to earn the respect I believe he deserves?

Muller93 · Guru

I am amazed that any hab fan could be indifferent when it comes to Koivu. the guy is amazing in all aspects, both in hockey terms and in personal life terms. What is wrong with this picture???? Any other team would be drooling to have such a talent... with the heart to boot.

HELLO!!!

AWOL · Veteran Member

Said it once and I'll say it again... heart n' soul of the team.

Ando · Guru

JohnM wrote:

Why the indifference towards the Habs captain?

What does he have to do to earn the respect I believe he deserves?

A good (and fair) question! And-o thinks Saku is a great player...and a good Captain!

I just don't place him on the same level as previous Hab Captains. Maybe it is because he has had such a huge history of injury and illness...and his Captaincy has spanned some of the worst seasons ever for the organization!

Fortunately, these new rules are an absolute God send to a guy like Saku...but history repeats...so (since I answered you) why not deal this guy while he is at his peak value? And WHY, WHY would BG dare to sign him long-term given his health record...unless he could exclude his salary from the cap???

Honestly, And-o digs Saku...but the #1 centre slot could be upgraded fairly easily. I guess that I believe there are many, many centres in the NHL (and some on the Habs now) that could produce better than Saku like stats with linemates like Kovy and Zed. That's my opinion. BOTTOMLINE...lose Saku before a knee goes!

Muller93 · Guru

Yep. Now that's logic. Let's see. Lindros, Forseberg, Thornton, Newendyk(sp?), Modano, and the list goes on and on. What do they have in common? That's right, injuries that have hindered them on numerous occassions. Heck Thornton was once a leading NHL scorer but because of back problems has trouble even playing a regular shift now( And Koivu outplayed him in the playoffs).

That argument that he is injury prone is so stupid I almost broke my neck shaking my head. Of course elite scorers in this game are injury prone. They are constant targets for the opposing teams checking lines. Big or small this is a fast physical game( unless you prance around like Ribero, in which case you could play 20 years without an injury). Fact is the great players tend to put their necks on the line, and yes, can gey injured.

Who has been a better Captain than Koivu in the last 20 years? Since 1986? Muller maybe only because he won a cup. Koivu has been consistently the number one guy on this team since he became a Montreal Canadian. What are you suggesting And-o? That every GM, coach, assistent coach and player that has been involved with the Montreal organization have been stupid? NO my friend, it is because he is the number one center.

So go ahead And-o and wait for that gloriouis day that Koivu may gey hurt and then post your" I told you so message". It won't matter because people who actually know the game of hockey recognize that warriors tend to get injured. Like almost every number one center in the game today. Man...are you a habs fan for real?

JohnM · Guru

Nice post Muller, I was gonna reply but it seems like it's a waste of finger punching with andy.

Ando · Guru

Like I said boys...that is MY opinion! I WAS ASKED FOR IT!!!

And there will be no "told you so" message WHEN a knee blows (or whatever) from And-o EVER...NEVER HAS BEEN (unlike others)!

There is strength and comfort in the herd though...especially if you shout REALLY loud and stick together. Whistle through the graveyard...that way nothing bad will ever happen!!!

...get over it Muller93!

Obviously someone high up has agreed with And-o...or Saks would have had a long term deal looooooonnnnnng ago! I suppose it will be my fault if this is his last year in Montreal?!?!?

Nice too debate...stupid though to be asked a question and ridiculed for an honest response! GROW UP!

Muller93 · Guru

I think I hane narrowed it down to who And-o really is. I mean, if I was an NHL player I would likely have a look at the web pages to see what people are saying about me. So And-o is one of these three people:

1. Ribero

2. Jacques Demers( he thinks Ribero should be Captain....???)

3 Or just some guy who kinda looks like the " comic book guy" from the Simpson's.

Seriously And-o... Who are you and what do you want?

Nil d · Guru

JohnM wrote:

I'll keep this tame so the post doesn't get closed. Saku has been the best player on the Habs so far this year. Here are some statistics: Games 13, Goals 5, Assists 10, Points 15, +/- 3, Avg time on ice 19:57 Not to mention his play on the PP, PK and what he brings every night. I know that some of you would rather have Bonk or Begin on the first line but if you really know hockey you would know Sak belongs just where he is. Begin is a great role player and is doing a hell of a job but you can't move him into something he isn't. Bonk has yet to prove anything as a Hab other than good defensive skills. Someone was almost grinning when they saw Sak go down last night, wasn't someone? And-o, obviously this comment was for you. No foul language though in your reply please.

I stated earlier that Koivu was arguably the Habs's best player this year. At this point in the season, I would remove the "arguably". Yes, Begin is going through a great streak and I love him to death, and Kovalev is the most exciting Hab since Guy Lafleur. But #1 reason why the Habs are where they are after 13 games? Kaptain K!

Muller93 · Guru

Get over what And-o? Not sure what you mean?

Secondly, I am not throwing a temper tantrum here. Just stating the cold hard facts in the life of an elite NHL player. So to yamber on about Koivu being injury prone is mute( unless you figure cancer is being injury prone?).

Plus when you talk about WHEN an injury will occur, it just has a ring of "yuck" about it. Sorry And-o, no disrespect but, from a hab fan perspective, I just don' t get it.

Ando · Guru

Well...no surprises here...our difference of opinion on Saku persist!

While And-o respects the contrary beliefs of others, he still maintains that Saku is not in the same class of player as Muller, Carbo, Gainey, Robinson or Keane.

And-o also feels that the best Habs so far this season are 1=Markov, 2=Kovy, and 3=Koivu (Begin and Rivet are 3a and 3b).

...And-o sure is glad that 3 other Peterborough boys are running his beloved Habs (Gainey, Jarvis & Green) with some BIG help from Savvy and Cabbage Patch Coach

JohnM · Guru

Ando wrote:

Like I said boys...that is MY opinion! I WAS ASKED FOR IT!!! Nice too debate...stupid though to be asked a question and ridiculed for an honest response! GROW UP!

Glad you gave your opinion Andy. Just to clarify, I asked Barry for his opinion.

Muller93 · Guru

Ahhhh The whole Saku "argument". You know it's kinda like having a debate with a color blind since birth individual on whether or not the sky is blue.

pointless.

ehem...Keane? Great little grinder but..oh boy.

barry33 · Guru

Boys boys boys...lets not get into a childish game of "you do not think my Saku is as good as I think he is"!. He is a world class player. I agree. But I am not going to get into a debate as to who is better or whatver. Saku has his qualities as I said., He leads by example. he scores gals, he checks. But when we get into comparing one captain to another. or one center to another it is at times it can be like trying to compare apples with oranges. For example..is Koivu as good as Sakic? In some was yes, in some ways no. Is he as good as Forsberg? Same answer.

Like you guys, I have my favorites. I like Koivu for what he brings to the table. Is he the best player in the league? Not by any means no he is not. But when you are comparing players and what they bring to a team you need to look at all the intangibles. Look at Begin. No way does he have the talent that Koivu does. But he brings a different element and is very valuable. Can you compare Saku to Sundin? I don't think so. Give me Sundin over Saku on a talent and size level, but give me Saks on a heart and determination and leadership level.

But because a guy does not go ga ga over your favorite player as much as you do, do not jump all over him. All I stated when asked was that I felt that he brought a ton of determination and skill to the team and desrved to be captain. But I guess I should have bowed down and worshipped?

JohnM · Guru

barry33 wrote:

But I guess I should have bowed down and worshipped?

Finally someone with common sense.

The question to you Barry is why he wouldn't be a fan favourite with all he brings to the team. i.e. what would make any Habs fan not be in favour of having Saku on their team.

I'll let this question be unanswered and let's revisit by the end of the year.

hockeyman · Senior Member

Grit,Leadership and Heart personified.

AB Habman · Guru

OK, you all know my answer on this one. Same as and-o! Saks has been injury prone through his career and for Muller93, I think he only played one full season without injury not counting his battle with cancer. I must admit though I like him more this season than prior seasons because of the new rules. Let's hope he stays healthy but if not, I don't think his stats would be missed as much as you all think. Time will tell all!

plouf · Guru

beware: amateur psychology below

The great thing about Montreal lately is that we have a deep team. So an injury to Bonk doesn't hurt us that much. By the same token, we can survive without Saku for stretches, as we did last season.This does not mean that Saku is not just as important or great as any of those past captains And-o mentioned were (exception: Robinson, the one player on that list who was absolutely indispensable in his prime). Even the great Bob Gainey (and my all-time favourite Guy CarbonneaU) happened to be on a great team, as much as anything else. You need the great team before you can raise it to a higher level with your leadership.

It's certainly reasonable to have doubts about Saku as captain and as a number one centre. I think many of us have those doubts sometimes. Even though Saku's my favorite Hab since Carbonneau, I have those doubts occasionally. The problem is that in many of And-o's posts there appears to be an obsession with these doubts. It's just not that important. All in all, though, these two question marks: "captain" and "big number one centre" are both red herrings. Leadership is never just about who the captain is (assuming you question Saku's leadership at all), and the big number one centre is far from absolutely necessary (see Bowman's Detroit...what is Yzerman if not a Koivu-type player?).

And-o's obsession is probably just the result of feeling he has to defend his position to the death: a)because this is how to establish his independent viewpoint, [his phrase "above the herd" says it all], and b) because everybody jumped on him so hard in the first place.

Muller93 · Guru

I have no problems when someone likes another player etc. Actually my main problem when it comes to the Koivu argument is when some people almost wish injury upon him( Using terms like WHEN he gets injured etc).

Its kinda like saying "When my father dies, I will use the inheritence to buy a new car". It just feels all wrong to me.

Especially if you are a habs fan. How can you not just be happy our captain is our best player at the moment? If Ribero was our best player, even though he just plays a brand of hockey I don't admire, I would still just come out and say it. And be happy about it!